Tuesday, 7 July 2009

Lordship Salvation; Is It Biblical? Part 2

Repent ye therefore. and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, Acts 3:19.

In this second part of this series, I want to discuss one aspect of Lordship theology that teaches a person must repent (turn from sin) and put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. For me this has been the most confusing aspect of this theology because one thing I knew was that this was not what happened to me at conversion. Reading how all other saints where converted in the bible, and by reading the likes of Bunyan and Spurgeon, I learnt that term repentance means something totally different to what I was hearing. As someone who shares the gospel regularly, I feared that my presentation of the gospel may not be entirely true. I implemented some of the Lordship theology in my presentation of the gospel,but every time I did this there was always a conviction in my heart, as though I was saying something wrong because I knew that this was something I could have never done outside Christ. I was bothered by the fact that I told people to turn away from sin, yet in my bible I was not getting such kind of teaching. But this is a teaching I was learning from the so called great theologians of toady. I then began reading about the meaning of repentance, and asked the Lord to help me fully understand the scriptures. I was amazed by what I learnt.

Nowhere in the scriptures do we see that repentance means to turn away from sin. Lordship theology defines repentance as the forsaking of sin. Personal reform through the forsaking of sin is a human work. Yet Lordship advocates deny that they teach a work based salvation, that salvation can only be obtained by faith in Christ. This is why I now despise this teaching so much and what led me to question it was the double talk which makes everything so confusing and complicated! They say salvation is not of works, yet they strongly teach that repentance is the turning from sin and this repentance is necessary for salvation. I don't know if its only me, but how contradictory and confusing can this doctrine get! A lot of people have accused me of my lack of understanding of what Lordship Salvation is, all I can say is over the past months the Lord put me in the fire, and it was through the most painful trials I have ever experienced that I learnt the falsehood of Lordship Salvation. I will admit that I learnt the hard way, it was when I was in what Bunyan described as the valley of humiliation, that my eyes where opened and the Lord saw it fit to deliver me from such a false and dangerous teaching. The Lordshippers who accuse me of ignorance, may I say to you that I know what I have been delivered from, and I cant help but share what I have learnt by the Grace of God.

Contrary to popular belief among professing "Christians", the term repentance does not mean to forsake or turn away from sin. This belief is not biblical and there is not one verse in the bible that teaches that turning from sin is necessary for salvation. Like faith repentance too is internal, therefore it is not a human work. A work is something external that is done or said, observable and measurable. But like faith repentance is something that happens in the inside, we can not see repentance as much as we can not see faith. Repentance is not a work.

In the bible, when read in context the word repentance means to change one's mind, this change can not be seen or observed outwardly. I believe it means more than just a recognition of who God is. Its the process by which one sees themselves for who they really are in God's eyes. Its the change of will, change of heart, change of what characterises a person's whole perspective of life. It is a complete change of mind about your very own self, what sin is, and what righteousness is. One recognises their sinful condition and are grieved by their sin. They then realise their need for redemption, thus embracing Jesus Christ by believing in Him for the salvation of the soul. That is what characterises true repentance. In fact salvation without true repentance is not possible, as seen in Acts 26:20, Luke 3:8 and Acts 3:19. There is no salvation without repentance. But the question to pose to the Lordship advocates is what is true repentance and what must a person do to be saved? Their answer is very different to what we learn in the scriptures.

Lordship theology has a complete different understanding as to what biblical repentance is, they believe repentance is a work, a turning away from sin. Turning away from sin happens after conversion, not before. Forsaking of sin is for saints through Christ by the power of the Spirit. Those who are dead in their sins can not turn from sin. If they try to, they are being heavy laden and all their good works are like filthy rugs before God. Good works are results of repentance not a condition for repentance. Turning from sin is a good work which is a result of a changed heart . The bible tells us that true repentance will result in a change of behaviour, but in no way are we told that a change of behaviour is in itself repentance.

We see that throughout the book of Acts that the gospel is a call to believe. This belief happens when one is granted repentance by the Lord. The gospel is not a call to stop sinning and turn to God. Never! It is impossible for such a thing to happen, salvation can never be of works. One thing I now know is that the gospel is simple. How simple? Simple enough for a four year old child to understand and believe. But can a four year old understand the gospel through Lordship theology? As a mother to a young child whose eyes was opened by God, I believe its impossible for my little one to even grasp a fraction of Lordship theology.

The problem with Lordship Theology is that one has to clean themselves up before they can consider turning to Christ. They can not just come to Christ as they are, instead sinners have to do something before they can receive grace. That is what " turn from sin and come to Christ" means. It means Christ is not sufficient, His work on the cross did not do it all, instead Lordshippers treat the grace of God as a cheap thing which is not good enough for salvation. In their attempt to prove that the road to life is narrow and a few find the way of salvation, they try to make the gospel as difficult as they can, sadly they do not understand that it is not our job to make the way narrow or strait. They know not the power of God, that He alone can make the vilest offender as white as snow. Only in Christ can we have victory over sin, prior to that all our good works are in vain.

For those who share their faith and love the truth, it is crucial and important to know what the gospel really is, one thing I can say without a shadow of doubt is that the gospel is not a call for sinners to turn away from sin and trust in Christ. This is a burden that none of us can carry, why put ourselves and others under the yoke of such bondage! The gospel is a call for sinners to turn to the living God, not by works, but by faith through Christ Jesus. Repentance and saving faith can not be separated, they go hand in hand. But we have to understand what it means to repent. Repentance is never a work, I believe it is a change of will and mind about what sin is and who we are before God, but the results of true repentance are good works, which is evident in the lives of those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Glory to God!

72 comments:

Sunshine said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Look up said...

Another very good post Jean!

lordstrophy said...

Jean: and by reading the likes of Bunyan and Spurgeon, I learnt that term repentance means something totally different to what I was hearing
_______________________________

Spurgeon:

"Repentance" is a hatred of sin; it is a turning from sin and a determination in the strength of God to forsake it. "Repentance" is a hatred of sin, and a forsaking it.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0044.htm

Westminister Shorter Catechism:
question 87
What is repentance unto life?
answer:
Repentance unto life is a saving grace, whereby a sinner, out of a true sense of his sin, and apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, doth, with grief and hatered of sin, turn from it unto God, with full purpose of and endeavor after, new obedience.

Repentance is a gift of God as is faith. Salvation is of God. Any turning to God and from sin is a work of God. None of it is a work of man.
"Repentance cannot be seperated from faith and vice versa. Which comes first? Sometimes repentance: Mark1:15, Acts 20:21, 26:18,20, other times faith: 1Thessolonians 1:9 In an about face there is a turning from and a turning to (ie, turn to the wall behind you, to do so you turned away from your computer, you CANNOT turn to without turning from) They are simultaneous and inseperable acts. Same as in conversion, one cannot truly repent without believing and one cannot exercise true faith without repentance. Faith is essential in salvation John 3:15-16, 18,5:24, 6:35, 37,47; 10:9, 11:25-26 Matthew 11:28, Mark 1:15 and many more. Faith in and of itself does not save nor does repentance. Christ, the object of faith,saves; faith is the instrument by which salvation is received.
_________________________________


Acts:26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light abd from the power of satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheretance among those who are sanctified by fatih in me.
_________________________________
Jean
It is a complete change of mind about your very own self, what sin is, and what righteousness is. One recognises their sinful condition and are grieved by their sin.


There is a change of attitude the New Testament calls "repentance" (metanoia, a change of mind, repentance, turning about, conversion.
Metanoeo (verb) means more than just an intellectual "change of mind" reference Matthew 21:28-32, the son changed his mind and went to the field ...
I read this: In repentance, more than the intellect is involved. There is a volitional element as well. Repentance is an attitude given by divine grace with reference to sin as a princilple and to all its manifestation (gal5:24). In intial conversion the Spirit of God convicts the sinner of his lost condition and of the sin or sins that manifest that fact. He crosses the sinner at his point of rebellion. The sinner must repent of the sin or sins the Spirit raises as an issue, as well as his lost condition. The rich young ruler had to repent of his covetousness. The samaritan woman had to face her immorality (John 4:16-19)and turn to the true Well of living water. When her sin was exposed and her false religious hopes were dashed and she acknowledged her need of the Messiah (John 4:20-25) then the Lord reveled Himself unto her (John 4:26) For those convicted on the day of Pentecost, Peter gave the command to repent and renounce their national sinof Christ rejection by identifying with Him through baptism (Acts 2:38) Baptism does not save but in this case it marked the point of rebellion. For the Thessolonians it was idolatry (1 Thess 1:9)
____________________________

lordstrophy said...

Jean
The problem with Lordship Theology is that one has to clean themselves up before they can consider turning to Christ. They can not just come to Christ as they are, instead sinners have to do something before they can receive grace


I do not know who teaches this and those that say this are wrong but they do not represent the Lordship theology.
You have yet to have one person that agrees with Lordship that has said this here on your blog nor have you quoted any specific teacher as saying this. This is an assumption, a conclusion you have come that is not supported by facts. (I know you spoke of Ray Comfort as saying stop sinning, I am not sure of his stand on Lordship nor is he thought of as a theologian that teaches lordship)

I read this great piece in a book by Robert Lescelius:
The accusation is made that lordship preachers too often "psychologize" faith and blur the issue of the gospel. Moving from decisionism to preparationism. Preparationism is the teaching that a sinner must evidence a certain amount of conviction and mourning for his sin before he has a warrant to believe the promises of the gospel. As a result seeking sinners are turned inward in subjectivity trying to discern whether they have repented enough. We must realize that the convicting work of the holy spirit is not to make a sinner acceptable to God but to make Christ acceptable to the sinner. We have repented enough when we cannot go another instant without Christ. Jesus is Lord but let us not forget that He is Saviour also. Salvation is His work. A sinner needs a saviour. May we never diminish the message of free grace to undeserving sinners. Let us not make "bad news" out of the "good news" of the gospel. If, in fact, Jesus is sovereign Lord in salvation (Jonah 2:9) He can save sinners. We do not have to make it harder for sinners to be saved, just because we reject the easy believism approach. (cont in next post )

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

We know that "Christ died for the ungodly"

Are you ungodly?

lordstrophy said...

cont:
In this day of a defective gopsel it is evident that our churches are full of false professors. It is a day that calls for self examination. The scriptures command us to diligently make certain of our relationship with Christ. But we must not be as some who glory more in getting a professing christian to doubt his salvation than seeing a sinner come to faith in Christ. May there be a balance to our teaching and preaching. The example of Lot should always temper us from a judgemental spirit in dealing with believers. It is not always the worst of evils to have doubts. Doubt often drives us to Christ and in the end settle us more firmly on the rock. If we are genuine we have nothing to fear from self examination in the light of the word of God. If we are not , it will be the greatest blessing to discover it and come to a true relationship with Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can give assurance (rom 8:16). Men can point you to the truths of the Word, but only the Spirit can give confirming witness. Lordship plays an important part in assurance, for assurance increases through obedience to the Word (1 John2:3) We know we are saved because of the promises of God, the witness of the holy spirit and the evidence of a holy life. Jesus- is- saviour only preaching can leave one with a verse of scripture without a changed life to back it up. The Spirit of God will not bear witness to a dead faith. Do not fear the lordship teaching. It is the biblical gospel, and it will bring the spirits confirmation (1cor 12:3) Deal with any sin that He is raising as an issue especially pride. Submission will bring peace. Do not be satisfied with anything but Christ Himself.
Again, this is from Robert Lescelius in response to the challenge of Lordship. He advocates the real lordship teaching and not the misinterpreted one nor one that is identified with any certain man (i have seen alot of reference to John Macarthur as if he is the inventor of this teaching) Christ tells us to take His yoke, it is light. It is a yoke and it is light. We should preach the gospel the same way He did in scripture. Follow his lead when witnessing. Speak as if you are speaking to the rich young ruler when you encounter such a one. Speak to the woman caught in adultery when you encounter such a one. Speak to the woman at the well as did Christ when you encounter such a one. All of our conversions happened in their own way, at their own time...they all involve the same gospel, the same Christ, but not the same exact circumstances...same as in the examples in the New Testament. Christ spoke to the sinner reaching them in THEIR place of sin....sin is what will send us to Hell..sin is why Christ died for us..sin is the issue..to pretend it is not is to lie...
Its why we have a complete bible and not just one single verse to go by...my love to all.

lordstrophy said...

look up:
I, like paul am the chief of sinners.....I know who and what i am and I know from where God saved me....I know who adn what my Christ is and I do not argue with you. We agree on too many things to be arguing.
Sin is forever in me the difference being once I embraced it and lved it and boasted in it, now I daily repent and have a hatred of it, I despise my sin and the acts of sin that I commit

Lou Martuneac said...

Jean:

Thanks for posting part two. I'll read and comment later.


LM

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

RL wrote
"We know we are saved because of the promises of God, the witness of the holy spirit and the evidence of a holy life."

He would have done well to stop at the first two, but by adding the third and his definition of a holy life, he writes both Solomon and David out of heaven.

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

I have found those things very easy to admit to in the past as well, but they don't quite sum it up.

It always comes down to this, "Are you personally right now ENTIRELY ungodly?"

That is the question we are to ask, so I ask again is your answer, Yes or No?

Puritan said...

"Nowhere in the scriptures do we see that repentance means to turn away from sin"

---That's simply not true. (Although, and I don't mean to mock, but to point out that Joel Olsteen, Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn all agree on your definition as a "change of mind").

Acts 8:22 "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness"

Rev 2:21 "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication"

Rev 2:22 "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds"

Rev 9:20b "did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk"

Rev 9:21 "And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts."

Rev 16:11 "They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds."

Repentance is a change of direction.

Non Lordship advocates teach: You can have Jesus as your saviour without having Jesus as your Lord.

Lordship advocates teach: If Jesus is your Saviour then he is also your Lord.

The Rich Young Young Ruler would have happily "believed on Jesus" if Jesus didn't as you put it "complicate the Gospel" by demanding he turn away from his covetousness of riches. But Jean please be very careful as by your standards you are accusing Christ of "complicating the Gospel".

"The problem with Lordship Theology is that one has to clean themselves up before they can consider turning to Christ. They can not just come to Christ as they are, instead sinners have to do something before they can receive grace.

--Again Jean, you have completely misunderstood. I don't know anyone who teaches that.

A correct understanding is,
You do not clean up your own life before you go to Christ. You go to Him as you are.

But also, you cannot go to Christ holding on to sin. I.E. The person who thinks they are going to be saved by Jesus but at the same time insist they are keeping their sin of adultery, drunkardness, or whatever, are deceiving themselves.

lordstrophy said...

Look up:



Again, I am not here to argue with you....you comment on what I have written and that is fine...now you are asking questions and saying that my answers, for you, are not good enough. Why? Why was my answer not sufficient? Are you saying that I must add to that answer to claim salvation?
After reading these posts and comments I have prayed and studied and
I have posted what has been put in front of me for you and others to do with as you wish...i do not know the mind of RL but in everything he wrote, much more than I could post, he did not give the indication that he has written anyone out of heaven...I took his words, holy life, to mean life as defined by scripture...a life that can stand by scripture...and if I am wrong in my opinion of him just remember
he is man and just capable of sin and mistakes as we are,I really continued reading the book (it belongs to someone else)because he is a lordship advocate that sent a rebuke to lordship advocates that blur the line...he does not seem to have drawn a line and say: either agree with all i say or you are wrong...I could be wrong, bc I often am, but it seems to me like you are trying to find something to argue over? Whether it be with me or the guy I quoted...WHY?

Look up said...

Puritan

You write:
"Non Lordship advocates teach: You can have Jesus as your saviour without having Jesus as your Lord.

Lordship advocates teach: If Jesus is your Saviour then he is also your Lord."

You forgot the group in the middle. The bride of Christ has taken Jesus as Husband.

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

It's no argument just a simple question.

"Are you personally, right now ENTIRELY ungodly?"

Look up said...

Puritan

You write:
"The person who thinks they are going to be saved by Jesus but at the same time insist they are keeping their sin of adultery, drunkardness, or whatever, are deceiving themselves."

If that is the standard you choose I know many a mormon and JW whose holiness would make you look very pathetic, yet they are not going to heaven either. Because something is missing....

It is called repentance. They have not changed their minds about who they are. Like any false religion, they simply will not admit that they are entirely ungodly...

However Christ will convince those dead in the sin of formality and hypocrisy along with all others who refuse to see themselves as ungodly when He returns...Jude 14-16

lordstrophy said...

I am entirely justified, being sanctified and cant wait to be glorified.....the Holy Spirit dwells in me and my heart of stone has been replaced with a heart of flesh, I have been saved lookup...I am in the church of Christ....Jesus is my savior and my Lord, He is prophet, King and Priest...give us your thought on repentance and the nature of faith...

Jean said...

Puritan,

May I just say Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn also agree with you that God created the heavens and earth, Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross and that the Bible is God's Word. I have just mentioned a few.

Now responding to your comment: Firstly may I say I do have much respect for you Puritan and I see you as an elder and teacher. I in no way mean to be rude or harsh here, but judging by your post you do not understand what repentance is. Also all the scriptures you have given me have proven that you take scriptures out of context to suit your misunderstanding.

Puritan, all your references validate the essence of my entire post. Still the scriptures you have given me DO NOT mean that repentance means TURNING AWAY from sin. What your scripture references do is support that repentance is of sin. Yes we repent of our wicked deeds, true. But turning away from sin is a fruit of true repentance. Still Nowhere in the scriptures do we see that repentance means to turn away from sin.

Repentance means to change one's mind about sin and self towards God.

Psalm 51:10, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me"

That is repentance. King David was grieved over his sin. He was sorry for sinning against God. Did David repent of his wickedness, Yes. That is exactly what he was doing in verse 10 of Psalm 51. But turning from sin is another matter altogether, that is not repentance.

Puritan, outside Christ we cannot turn away from sin. It is He who works in us to change us. You have no understanding of true repentance here. The scriptures you quoted are asking sinners to repent, as in to grieve and be sorry, and be willing to forsake their evil deeds. That is what those verses mean. They do not mean that sinners should stop sinning. Its impossible outside Christ. What you teach is no different to what any other false religions teach, especially Muslims. Our good works are like filthy rugs.

In 1 John 1:9 this is the most clear cut scripture to me that repentance is not a work. It is God who cleanse us from all unrighteousness after we have truly repented. We repent, God cleanses us, therfor we can do good works. Not the other way round as you suppose.

Puritan, it is crucial that you understand the gospel you preach. If you telling sinners to turn away from sin, then you are preaching a false gospel. Sinners need to repent of their wickedness, yes, But from turning away from sin is a good work that can only be done in Christ.

sarah said...

Dear Jean,
I understand what you are saying here. I was once a very repentant, religious person. Believing myself to be saved and godly, everyone else I knew thought so too.(Except my children knew better, for at home I was not the same.) However, I was not a child of God, but doing everything by my own efforts. Believe it or not this effort gave me a sense of what I thought was "peace" but I know now that it was pride.

God did save me one day, He brought Scripture to my mind from Isaiah 53, and I asked myself,"What does that mean He bore the iniquity of us all?" God at that moment opened my eyes and understanding to the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross for me. At that moment I believed in my heart and cried with thanks- giving to the Savior. After that sin became something I despised and turned from... repenting from the heart with brokenness.
There is a difference and you are so right about the false gospel being taught.

You have given things for me to think and pray about ...thank you

In our Savior,
Sarah

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

Repentance deals with 'sin', Lordship deals with 'sins'.

'Sins' are what you do, 'sin' is who you are. When you realize that not only do you sin, but you ARE sin, that is repentance. Your sins are only made manifest to you for you to realize that you ARE 'sin'. The 'sins' Puritan mentions in all his repent verses are made manifest so the person will repent of his sin (who he is) rather than just his sins (what he does).

It is not until one is given a sight of God with spiritual eyes that they may proclaim with the prophet, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

The Christian has realized that not only do they sin, but they ARE sin, and have fled to Christ on that account.

lordstrophy said...

look up:
maybe you didnt catch that in what I posted, i made the difference in sin in me and the sin i commit.."my sin, the acts of sin", seperate....I do not speak for Puritan but for myself, again, I know who and what I am.....


I wrote:
Sin is forever in me the difference being once I embraced it and lved it and boasted in it, now I daily repent and have a hatred of it, I despise my sin and the acts of sin that I commit...

lordstrophy said...

look up:

again, we agree on too much to be going back and forth with each other on anything other than where we disagree on this post..

sybonner said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Look up said...

Lordstrophy

You simply asked for me to explain repentance which I did. Repentance has NOTHING to do with your 'sins', and EVERYTHING to do with your 'sin'. Your 'sins' are the effect, your 'sin' is the cause. Lordship deals with the effects and is merely applying a different coat of paint to the sepulchre.

You don't just have sin in you, but you ARE sin, EVERYTHING about your being is sin, repentance is acknowledging that at the deepest level. That is why I asked if you believed you were entirely ungodly. It is the dividing point between the Christian and a mere professor. Though they may admit to many things, the mere professor will not readily admit to being ENTIRELY ungodly. It is too grievous to them.

When trying to determine a counterfeit we don't look for the similarities, we must zero in on the differences.

The differences between the gospel and Lordship salvation truly are enough to call it a false gospel.

If this didn't really matter, or if I didn't care, I wouldn't waste my time arguing, but it matters, and I care.

Natasa said...

Your post is so simple; faith as a gift from God and godly sorrow as result of conviction of the Spirit result in turning away from sin and living holy life led by the Spirit. Salvation is moment but also a lifetime journey.

lordstrophy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
lordstrophy said...

look up
ungodly is
what I was before salvation, I have been made a new creature in the rebirth....are you ungodly now as a saved child of God with the Holy spirit residing in you?

lordstrophy said...

look up:

can you give me an example of how you see a lordship advocate giving the gospel vs what you say the gospel is?

I just do not see the difference on how you and i view the gospel...only how we both view lordhip differently (which by the way we both know Jesus is Lord and it must be acknowledged)

Jean said...

Lordstrophy, are you the chief of sinners, today?

lordstrophy said...

Jean,
yes I am ...i am a sinner saved by grace and the ONLY good that God sees in me is Christ....

lordstrophy said...

I by no means think that we are doing works to be accepted by God...I believe we are dead in sin until God saves us...born dead, reborn by the Spirit of God..I believe repentance and faith to go hand in hand, two sides of the same coin and that both are gifts of God given at the moment of salvation...repentance being a change of mind about who and what we are (sin)and who and what Christ is... and that change in mind results in a turn from sin (ourselves) to Christ (salvation)...that is why the demons can believe Jesus is the christ and remain unsaved...that is why people will stand in front of Jesus on the last day and say Lord Lord, believing who He is and still not be saved....does that make sense? I am pretty sure you believe the same thing, right?

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

You wrote:
“what I was before salvation, I have been made a new creature in the rebirth....are you ungodly now as a saved child of God with the Holy spirit residing in you?”

My reply:
Yes, I am ENTIRELY ungodly!

It is all I can claim of myself. As you stated “the ONLY good that God sees in you is Christ” that means everything else is ungodly, but everything else is me!

EVERY man both lost and saved are entirely ungodly, the Christian however has been COUNTED godly by the nature of Christ imputed to him. Likewise the Christian is not worthy (Rev 5:4) they are simply COUNTED worthy (Acts 5:41, 2 The 1:5). For if the Christian truly were worthy any one of them would have been able to open the seal in Rev 5:4. That verse is to attribute true worthiness only to Christ.

As Christ is both ENTIRELY Man and ENTIRELY God, so the Christian is both ENTIRELY ungodly, and COUNTED entirely godly in Christ Jesus.

The Christian still sins because he IS sin and these sins are to serve as a reminder that we are ENTIRELY ungodly and remain so until glorification. This very look at ourselves is to throw us back upon Christ.

Lordship advocates such as Macarthur and Puritan, fight tooth and nail to deny this. They refuse to believe they are ungodly, but when Christ comes He will convince ALL that they are ungodly (Jude 14-16), no matter what colour paint they have on. We can either be convinced of it now, or wait until then. However waiting until then seals our damnation.

This is the root of the one-nature heresy that prevails in Lordship theology. It fails that which it claims so loudly to have proclaimed,.... to bring one to repentance....

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

I will be very plain with you.

You are no trophy, you are an entirely ungodly, vile, wretch, and when you truly see yourself as that, THAT is repentance.

Do not despair though, Christ specializes in saving entirely ungodly, vile, wretches, it is the trophies He leaves for the Devil.

I speak this not as an enemy but as a friend, speaking to the saving of your soul. May God grant you repentance at this reading!

Jean said...

Look up, thank you for pointing that out to lords, you said something I always thought, but I guess I am coward at times.

Lords, I have never been comfortable with even typing out the name that you refer yourself as, if you notice in most of my posts to you, I just write "lords" because I am unsure as to why you would refer to yourself as lordstrophy. It says a lot about you and how you see yourself more than how God sees you. It sounds so God dishonouring and irreverent, and to be honest it almost sounds blasphemous.

Now, Melissa, I hope you dont mind me calling you that because you have submitted your name on this blog in the past. I used to be in that place you are in, so I know and I understand.
But a number of months ago, I started struggling with the teachings I was used to listening to, especially by Ray Comfort. It got to a point that even listening to him was so uncomfortable for me, though I could not put my finger on it. When I was still on Face-book, one day I participated in a thread that was discussing salvation and repentance. I thought I knew it all until one girl pointed out my error, and accused me of double talk and being in error. This was a big blow to me. Because of my pride, I found it hard to even consider that I could be wrong, for I thought I knew a lot. But the conviction in my heart was so strong, and what this girl said made so much sense that I had to admit on Face-book on the thread that I was not sure of what I was saying. It took a lot of humbling from the Lord that's for sure. I did not take on board what she said to be true, but it gave me a lot to think about, and considering the issues I was already struggling with, I saw that I need to learn a lot.
The problem with me was pride, to even consider that I may have been following erroneous doctrines was something very hard for me to admit. The Lord then dealt with the root of my problem, which was not the Lordship Theology I was following, but my very own pride.

So many times we just want to be right, so we argue for the sake of it. We are more concerned about our pride, and to admit that we are in error (especially about bible doctrine) is one of the hardest thing to do, its the Lord who has to humble us for this to be possible. On our own I am afraid admitting we are in error about biblical truth is not possible.
Over the past few months I was humbled by God in a way I have never even imagined or thought possible. I was humiliated so much that those who knew me would say "Where is her God?". For me the most painful thing in my trial was letting go off my pride, it was hard, but the Lord made it possible. I was humbled. That's when I realised that my pride was preventing me from even learning God's word. Then everything became clear that I was in error of following Lordship doctrine after I was humbled. When I was in a humble state without my pride, I was able to learn. Melissa what you need right now is not learning about your error,or debating Lordship theology, your greatest need today is humbling.
Melissa, I am not hear to just argue with you for the sake of it, its not about who will win, but we are talking eternity here, and I do care about you. I do not mean to be harsh either. Forget John MacArthur, forget Ray Comfort, its not about them, forget all those teachers, and look at yourself before God and ask Him to show you the truth, remember the truth will set you free. Pride is a very dangerous sin, most people are on their way to Hell because of it, we have to be willing to let it go. That is repentance, seeing ourselves as we really are, changing our minds about US.

Lordship salvation is not biblical. However I can never convince you, only God can humble you and open your eyes to the deception that surrounds this doctrine. Remember many religious folk have zeal, but it is zeal without knowledge. My unsaved husband is much more nearer to Christ than many in the Lordship camp.
For the sake of your soul, please consider what I have shared with you, I do care Melissa.

Love

Jean

lordstrophy said...

look up:

I will be very plain with you. You have stood in the place of God by saying I am not saved...you have taken it upon yourself to say that as of this reading i have not repented and been saved...you have crossed a line that from my understanding is forbidden in scripture as you cannot know my heart and you cannot judge the servant of another...that being said, that is between you and God


now, my life is very much a trophy of Gods grace working in a wretched sinner...I do not think more of myself than i ought...my life is a testimony of what God does when He saves....He did not leave me where He found me... and to the change He wrought I will TESTIFY...It is all Him and none of me...let me make sure you got that: IT IS ALL HIM AND NONE OF ME...He changes those whom He saves...do you deny that? I have to cling to the cross of Christ every minute of everyday because I see my sin and it prevails...I do not deny that...
I glory in my God, I boast in the cross of Christ...He brought me to my sin lookup, He met me at the very point of my rebellion as it was being manifested in my life...when I denied my sin He allowed me to wallow in even more until I was broken and crushed under the weight of who and what I was...and when He saved me it showed....where do get the idea from what I have written that these things have not taken place? is it because I say Lordship? do you take every person that claims Jesus is Lord and Saviour and just assume they arent saved? you think that when one says they are to live a holy life that they mean good deeds and not a life as described in scripture...a life of repentance and prayer and communion with God, one that bears the fruit of the Spirit that god grows in His children,
you take the verses that Puritan pointed out to jean in reference to something she said and think he means that is all we turn from is outward sin when he clearly was speaking in response to her saying that nowhere in scripture does it speak to turning from sin? you should be plain here...you should speak plainly and say this is not about lordship as most would understand it but this is about the nature of man...you should lay out the nature of man as you see it and then allow comments on that then the issues wouldnt be getting confused and your veiled speech can be clear...be very plain as to what you see the conflict to be...i have ONLY spoken to what is written...i would be glad to hear how this topic and the nature of man comes in conflict...i have prayed and read and studied and listened and NOWHERE do i see perfectionism being taught...being reborn has put me in a direct battle with myself, my sin, a battle that had not been fought before....so if you think that the nature of man is the real issue then speak to it..be clear, we are all sinners here so confusion will abound but Gods word is clear. You proclaim it and you may be suprised to see that there are people here that quite clearly understand who they are but do not agree with the things Jean has written...you show us where to two conflict, none of us are above learning and i have said PLAINLY that we agree on many things. The gospel is what we agree on show me where that is not true..be clear...it seems we do not agree on the life of a believer after salvation...I say it is a changed life, more important, scripture says it is a changed life

lordstrophy said...

....THE LIFE LIVED is changed: Even so consider yourself to be dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive fromt he dead and your memebrs as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not master over you for you are not under law but under grace.


However you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the spirit of god dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ he does not belong to Him.
God grace changes lives lookup, we are in the spirit and battling the flesh. I am sorry for you if you believe all that do not speak as you, or agree 100% with you are not born again. If that is true of you then trust me when I say that is how you are being perceived...

lordstrophy said...

Jean: you have taken my screen name that I created I do not know how long ago that came from a song that our former pastors daughter sang in church, a name that i threw together in a second to come to your blog and encourage you after hearing your story and you have judged my salvation on that name....i have emailed privately and told you that i dont defend a doctrine or a man, that if i am saying anything in my posts that offends then please tell me..I can most certainly take correction and I have never given a second thought to my name meaning anything other than "God has changed"...I will rethink my name, i have given alot of thought to the things posted here and have searched, not just grabbed a position and held on for dear life, i have quoted others on the topic not myself or my opinions, i have looked into the teaching for myself as not to be decieved...I really was convicted when I read the rebuke in the book I quoted as to making the gopsel harder than it is...that is why I posted it...my concern and even my reason for originally posting here has been for you...concerned that you may be confused as it seems in some of your statements, concerened that you are teaching things that may cause others to stumble, I am sorry you see me as defending a camp or man, i thought i had been very careful in not doing so, as I posted in my blog that i shared with you..thank you for being concerened about my salvation and trust me that I have been saved by the grace of God, that is my point ot you, not everyone that disagrees with you on certain things are unsaved and not all that are saying Jesus is saviour and Lord are false teachers, some may be, some that post here may not be saved...this is why we have been warned abou the wrangling of words...maybe the next post could be the gospel clearly given..again, i apologize if you have been offended and I will go back and read what I have posted to see where pride abounds, I am humbled daily and God has shown me many areas that I have been wrong about since saving me...I have posted from a true concern and love...

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

Christians have always seen themselves as entirely ungodly. When God has actually met you it can be no other way. To deny it, it only offers proof that one has yet to meet the King.

Job 42:5-6 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile ; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Ezra 9:6 And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.


This is why several NAZI war criminals will enter heaven and why many Lordship salvation proponents will not. The NAZI’s have seen themselves for who they really are…..whereas Lordship Salvationists refuse to admit they are entirely ungodly….

Fascinating book if you are interested in understanding grace.

http://www.challies.com/archives/book-reviews/book-review-war.php

…. few have learned in school that among the last words of Joachim von Ribbentrop, Hitler’s foreign minister, were, “I place all my confidence in the Lamb who made atonement for my sins. May God have mercy on my soul.” He then turned to Gerecke and said, “I’ll see you again.”

lordstrophy said...

look up:

why do you think i have not seen myself as ungodly? what part of what I am saying to you are you not understanding?

Look up said...

It is not a past tense as though you no longer are it, it is a present tense. That is the very nature of repentance, it causes you right now to see yourself as entirely ungodly. Just as it did in men of old.

That is why I keep asking:

Are you entirely ungodly right now?

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

To say that you were ungodly but are no longer ungodly is to thank God that you are not like other men, just as the Pharisee did in Luke 18:11-12. If you believe that lost men are entirely ungodly, unless you are the lost Pharisee in the verse, you will see that you yourself are the same.

lordstrophy said...

look up,
and i tell you yes, there is no good thing in me other than Christ. There is nothing I do that can please the Father, only His Son in me is pleasing in His sight. There is no work, no word, no thought that I have that grants me favor in His eyes other than His Son in me. The difference between me and the great lady down the road or the friend I have in rehab is Christ... I am seen as forgiven to the father and they are seen as condemned, I am a child born of the Spirit in the new birth and they are not, my spirit cries Abba, Father and theirs do not....
When I say I am ungodly, I do not mean without God, I do not mean unchanged by the power of the Spirit....I am the "but you" in Jude 20, not the ones that follow their ungodly lust spoken of in vs 18...look up, i have tasted the goodness and grace of God....I walk in His grace daily...I had a past tense moment of saving grace and a present tense of walking in it..........

lordstrophy said...

wrangling of words: lookup,
is this what we are doing? i dont mean this post I mean you and I specifically?
we agree...anyone reading this may not know it....does that mean we are wrangling?

lordstrophy said...

lords trophy, virtuous woman
ungodly, sinner

difference?

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

There is no wrangling of words.

Ungodly doesn't mean without God, it means opposed to God, and is the root of a very simple straightforward question.

We have discussed Christ who is entirely godly, we have discussed you who are entirely ungodly. We have discussed all you can claim as being you, which is your own nature, any other nature is simply imparted to you, but it is not you.

Therefore it is pretty simple:

Are you entirely ungodly right now? Yes or no?

If no, it means Christ didn't die for you; if yes, it means He did.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Jean said...

Lords, The virtuous woman is the title of this blog, named after proverbs 31. I am not the virtuous woman. Trust me ther is nothing virtuous about me! I never refer to myself as virtouos, check all my blogs i always say i aspire to be a virtuous wife to my husband. I named the blog after proverbs 31 because am so in love with that chapter have learnt a lot from it and i desire for other women to learn from it too. Thats the idea. I am just Jean, here or on other blogs. I am not virtuous.

lordstrophy said...

if being ungodly mean that me, myself is entirely worthy of nothing but an eterity in hell apart form a holy God~I am ungodly

If it means being a sinner by birth, rotten to the very core~I am ungodly

If it means includes all that I have said I am ~ I am ungodly

if it means I was dead in my sin and a slave to it UNTIL being indwelt by the Holy Spirit~ I am ungodly


It it means there is no change in my love, my mind, my will, my desires, then no, I cannot say that is true...see, I know that I was at emnitiy with God and His wrath abided on me but since salvation I am no longer his enemy but His child, I am a new creature, a new man, reborn of the Spirit....so see, I am ungodly but saved, I am like Paul in Romans at war between my flesh and my spirit, you can call it any nature you wish, dual, single, two natures fighting, the spirit and flesh fighting..whatever you call it, I am looking to Christ for all, I am what He says I am, part of His bride, daughter of God our Father...I am redeemed and washed in the blood of the Lamb...I am His...

lordstrophy said...

look up:

Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting Him alone for your salvation


This is what is included in the biblical salvation section of your blog...could you clarify this statement? I see that when you turn to Christ you are turning from yourself, your sin.....do you agree?

lordstrophy said...

I am in the process of changing my screen name as it is being misunderstood to draw attention to myself and not Christ.....bear with me until i get it done...Jean, you could have told me and it would have been appreciated not at all taken offensively

Look up said...

Lordstrophy

As I clarified, being ungodly simply defined means being opposed to God.

You wrote:
“If it means there is no change in my love, my mind, my will, my desires, then no, I cannot say that is true”

This isn’t of you, and you can’t claim it as though it were you. All you can claim is your opposition to God, which is why you still sin. Those new desires you claim are not of you, they are of another. If there is a change in your will it is not of you, it is of another. By refusing to come out and say caveat free that you are ENTIRELY ungodly, you keep trying to claim some small portion as though it were you. That is the root of one-nature fallacy, which is the root of the Lordship fallacy.

You wrote:
“I am looking to Christ for all”

You are looking to Christ for all when you stop claiming anything that may have been done by Him in you as though it actually belonged to YOU. The truth is it all belongs to Him, that is why no man was found worthy to open the scrolls. The ONLY claim you can make about yourself is that you are ENTIRELY ungodly. You yourself are entirely opposed to God right to the very core, and were the Holy Spirit to withdraw His restraint you would see that. To take any credit for that restraint as though it belongs to you is to rob the Holy Spirit of the glory of His work in the matter.

You are ENTIRELY ungodly and were you now left to yourself you would do worse than Solomon, nay even worse than the adultery and murder of David, were it not for His restraint of you.

Yet His restraint is not in and of itself that which proves you belong to Him. Many a man is restrained from alcohol without coming to Christ, many a man is restrained from murder without coming to Christ. Many a man makes many a fine story about where he stands with Christ, but let him rob the least farthing out of the bag of the glory of God, and he makes his profession in vain. If you do not see yourself as ENTIRELY ungodly, caveat free, you are robbing the bag.

Will you not admit that you are ENTIRELY ungodly, caveat free?

Testing the Spirits said...

Jean wrote:
"That's when I realised that my pride was preventing me from even learning God's word."

What a sounding truth to me...thanks! Just confirmed something to me....I have pride in thinking and even pretending to know doctrine. I know deep down I don't know anything, I would assume all of us can say that.

I have been debating with myself to shut down my blog. (I already shut down Facebook) It is a struggle because pride wants me to keep it up,; like I have something to say.LOL Its a sense of "good works" that if I can post something then somehow I am doing something to validate myself to others and to God. i believe the Lord has held people back from my blog for a purpose, I hardly ever get comments from anyone. I believe that the Lord is echoing to me the very thing you just said.

The Lord wants to wash my mind of all this teaching that I have absorbed as show me HIS truth. I too have been a Ray Comfort fan, amongst others, God is not going to show me His truth if I don't lay down my pride and get alone with Him.

Blessings
Mike

paidfor said...

Look up:

It is after much prayer and scripture reading that I am writing this. I have engaged this conversation with the best of intentions towards Jean as I do not see her and I disagreeing on things and with concern that she may be critical and judgemental of people that may be truly born of God. Not all, but some, and making broad general statements can be dangerous. She is a babe in Christ and may not realize the postition she is in with the posting of this very public blog. That said, she knows now.

As to you, I have said all I can, all that the Lord has shown me and all He has given to me. I have claimed nothing for myself, of myself. I give all credit to Christ for all that I am, all that I have and all that i do..and anyone reading what I have written should be able to see that, except you and I am not sure about Jean.

The only conditions placed on the word ungodly were directed to YOU. They were: "if YOU look up say it means"...I am wary of the word games and veiled speech so I have tried to overclarify. You can read what I have written so there is no need to re state it all...believe me, I know what I would do if left to myself,I remember every thought, word and deed, I know where I was headed and that was in the direction of satan himself, I ran with him and reveled in it.. but thats just it, I am not and will not be without the power of the holy spirit residing in me...I am sealed by the holy spirit...FOREVER...I am still a wretched vile sinner that is bleesed with the power of the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth, to grow fruit in me, to cause me to love God and love others, to enable me to follow scripture and to hate my sin, to hate my thoughts to hate my actions when i follow the lusts of my flesh...

I know Satan is the accuser of the brethren so he would glory in me saying anything about myself other than what god says about me. I am being careful not to overstep what is written. I AM the ungodly that Christ died for. I am as Paul...he did not remain Saul...that is all I say...my reading last night in 2 Peter 1:2: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust....6: to knowledge self control to selfcontrol perseverance, to perseverance godliness....then today in Romans 5:6- 8:14...speaks of us being reconciled to God through the death of His son...reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed to sin but alive to God...i tell you that I am like Paul, it is not me but sin in me....but this is not enough for you...you want to go beyond what is written...I repeat for the sake of anyone reading this: call it flesh/spirit, old nature/new nature, old man/new man...ask the four year old to tell you which of these are the correct terms because as Jean said, salvation is simple enough for a four year old...my salvation does not rest on what variety of terms that I use for the struggle in me, for if it did then the four year old unable to answer this could not have salvation...Rev12:10speaks of the accuser of the brethren and continues in vs 11: and they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives to the death...you ask for more than this...YOU have been my accuser...I read a very good devotion form spurgeon this morning that I will post over at my blog if you have any desire to speak further about this...the Lord has directed me to so many things while conversing with you and for that I am very thankful. I have clung to Him and searched His word during this time even more than I have lately and for that i am also thankful. If anything written has caused any to stumble I ask forgiveness...my desire to post was to try to clarify and edify not cause confusion and division. If you have any more concern for me you know where to reach me.....

paidfor said...

Jean,
I thank you and lookup for commenting on my name, for even taking the time to respond...I will pray for you as you walk out your journey for all to see...as I have told you privately, I do not follow man nor mans teaching but I follow Christ. I would encourage you not to trade in one position for another...I pray you see that this does come down to the nature of man, an argument being held between groups, non lordship groups and lordship groups. An argumetn that I do not believe you or I were aware of....
I pray you speak as Paul does and witness as Jesus did...give the gospel written in scripture, only print what you can prove, never accuse the brethren (be sure you know the teaching is against scripture and not against another group), you and I have not learned all there is to learn and we need to be careful with the forum we are using...that is why I hesitate to give opinion or "what I think something means"... I am too apt to be wrong and too prideful at times to admit it. Pride is not something that goes away completely at salvation...you say humbling is what I need most today and I say it is what I need everyday, I say it is something you need as well...we all need it...when reading about the pharisee and the tax collector how apt are we to think in our sinful state: God, thank you I am not like that Pharisee...I do not know all things nor do I claim to.
Do you know all things about what you are posting before you post them? That is probably the question we should all be asking ourselves. Be careful in proclaiming salvation or lack thereof over people whom you do not know...
blessings and peace be with you sister......

Krys725 said...

Jean, I do think that you still have misunderstood some things. You are right in a lot of ways, but there is a disconnect in what you are saying. Our Lord Jesus Christ says in Mark 1:14-15 "Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Calling sinners to repentance is biblical evangelism. We also see that with Paul in Acts 20:21, which others have mentioned.

Repentance is not a work because it is granted by God: Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:24. The carnal man cannot just repent of their own ability, if they could, then it would be a work, but that is not so. God grants them that godly sorrow, where (like you were saying) they see who they truly are before a Holy and righteous God.

I apologize, I have not read all of the other comments so I probably reiterated what has been said before. But I will try to remember you in prayer, my sister, that the Lord will reveal the truth of His word to you. I will also pray for your husband, that the Lord will have mercy on his soul.

Lou Martuneac said...

Jean:

It is late, but I want to reassure you that you do have the errors of Lordship Salvation (LS) nailed down. FWIW, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ are necessary for salvation (Acts 20:21). However, Lordship’s defining repentance as “turning from sin” is antithetical to the Scriptures.

You are reading responses from LS advocates who suggest faith and repentance are the gifts of God. These are extra-biblical presuppositions that flow from 5-point Calvinism.

LS fails the test of Scriptures that clearly teach salvation is by God’s grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Enter Calvinism’s presuppositions that are drawn from forcing into or extracting from passages things that are just not there. They have to do this to float their LS theology.

Here are some helpful links.

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

The Danger of Teaching that Faith is the Gift of God

Lordship’s “Turn From Sin” FOR Salvation

Make no mistake: LS corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3). LS is a works-based, non-saving message the frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21).


LM

Krys725 said...

Jean

I have a question, when pondering on your post and your definition of repentance. (Where did you get it from?) I began to think about 2 Corinthians 7:10. Quoting from the ESV "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death." There is a difference between godly grief and repentance, as we see in this verse they are different. You are absolutely correct, someone has to see themselves as a wicked, God-hating sinner, by God's grace, in order to accept the Lord Jesus Christ. But that realization of how God sees us and the agreement of God's view of us is what brings about true repentance. Which is a turning away from sin, meaning that someone will no longer make a practice of sin because the Spirit of God will convict them and they will no longer be able to sin comfortably without repentance at some point. It absolutely does not mean that someone stops sinning, that is impossible until we are glorified, but 1 John 3:6 is very clear "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." (NASB) I just don't know how anyone can get around that verse.

castingthelight said...

http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/.id.2.pid.1013


Jean,
I will be to the point because it is neccessary, i have included a link above for all on your site to read. It is a discussion involving "lookup" otherwise known as Lee, from the invisible church blog listed on your homepage.
I have spoken to Lee at his blog. He is in grave error and needs to be avoided. I would suggest you no longer allow him to post. He is very persuasive and dangerous. Please take the time to read the ENTIRE discussion on the link, follow them through to the end before making a decision on your future association. They had a much better insight on how to deal with such teaching than I. You have placed yourself in a dangerous position by having a public blog with links to teachers. You endorse them by placing their links here. You may have unknowingly done so, but now you know. Be cautious from here. Posting your ideas and concerns in itself is not neccessarily bad and can be good. Again, please take the time to read the above link.
In Christ

Look up said...

Casting

You wrote:
"...we would be honored to have you and your family at our church"

I wonder how many other persuasive and dangerous people you have invited there?

A self-proclaimed wolf hunter who cannot discern between his right hand and left hand, even inviting those he considers wolves into his church.

NOW I think you will finally agree that you are just as thrilled as I am that I don't attend your church.

Puritan said...

Jean, I can only echo the comment of Casting the Light, and encourage you to avoid Lee/Look-Up.

I'll Be Honest Blog has just posted a set of excellent videos dealing with True Biblical Repentance

Krys725 said...

Jean,

Here is a link to a video that was just posted and I believe in God's perfect timing. Pastor Tim Conway of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, TX gives a very sound biblical answer to someone who asked about repentance. It is 14 minutes, but definitely worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vU0TTQTvLw

Some points that he made:

-Jesus commands people to repent or perish in Luke 13, with no explanation of repentance. He just commands them to repent, to do something that is impossible for them to do.
-Similar example: Jesus commands the man with a palsy to walk, something impossible for the man to do. But by trusting and believing that he could do it with Christ's strength, he walks.
-Another example given: Jesus commands Peter to walk on water, something impossible for a man to do. But he believed that he could do it with Christ's strength and did it, however when he took his eyes off of Christ he began to sink.

Jesus commanded people to do something impossible, to turn away from all they know - sin. That's impossible! However, when they obey the command to repent, trusting in Christ that they can do it with His strength, they can repent by God's grace.

I am not good at explaining things. I hope that that made sense and that the Lord is pleased. I also hope that you can watch the video because it would make more sense. Praying for you, my sister.

Testing the Spirits said...

castinglight, I checked out your link and read through, what I come to conclude is Lee has not said anything that you do not know already and disagree with. What went on there is two parties having a disagreement; which we can find on any doctrinal debate over the internet. Many hold to the traditional church and many do not, many hold to infant baptism and many do not, many hold to Calvinism and many do not. What I have read from Lee on his blog is sound, he at this point has not talked about the "church" on his blog. Now on his website, it is more of an informational website, a hosting website that is full of articles from many sources, I don't think I have found anything on his website that he has personal written about the state of the church, he has mostly compiled articles. Except for his "About" link. I would say that he leaves it up to those to render a decision after reading the articles.

Mike

Krys725 said...

aaa

Tom Mahon said...

Look up said...

Lordstrophy
wrote...

"We know we are saved because of the promises of God, the witness of the holy spirit and the evidence of a holy life."

Look up said...

>>He would have done well to stop at the first two, but by adding the third and his definition of a holy life, he writes both Solomon and David out of heaven.<<

Are you saying that the Christian is not called to live a holy life? If that is what you are saying, why was Peter inspired to write this passage of Scripture, 1 Peter 1:13-16?

Are you also saying that holy men do not make mistakes by sinning? The prophets are described as "holy men," yet none of them were perfect in themselves. Their perfection, like the Christian's perfection, is summed up in the phrase, "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

The church of God is a community of saints, not a refuge for sinners.

Sara said...

Speaking about my own conversion here. I had no knowledge of terms such as repentance or Lordship Salvation. It was God the Father who drew me to Jesus, (John 6:44). I had no church or witness. It was the Father who orchestrated my salvation through His son. I knew I had to confess all my sins before the Lord and I asked for forgiveness in the name of Jesus. I was then filled with the Holy Spirit. Our "Helper" guided me and I knew the things I could not engage in any longer. (Repentance) As time went on, more and more clarity came about my sin and the things I needed to confess and repent of. The deep rooted things such as unforgiveness and bitterness, etc.
Our salvation is a gift and it is all done by God. All we have to do is believe and ALLOW God to change us.
The Gospel of Jesus is quite simple really.
As time has passed I am now called to serve. I am growing in my relationship with the Lord. I obey Him and die to my self (as much as it hurts sometimes). I ask Him what I am to do and He tells me and I do it because I love Him.

Jan said...

Hi Jean-

Thanks for this second article. I only just got to it today, alas. I meant to read it some time ago when I saw you had posted it and then was accosted with a serious case of the busies.

My testimony is similar to yours in that I was not called on to turn from sin at the time of salvation. I was informed that I was a sinner and that my sin separated me from God, but was not told I must forsake the specific expressions of the sin nature (lying, stealing, whatever.) The Holy Spirit gave convincing witness to the truth that I was indeed separated from God because of sin, and that Jesus Christ died on the cross in order to reconcile me to God. I was still young enough to have that child like sense of needing my help to come from some one other than me so I had no problem with the fact that I needed Jesus to provide my reconciliation. Therefore, it was a simple case of accepting His death on my behalf, which I did.

He has been conforming me into Christ's image ever since.

I appreciate what you said (in comments) about the need for humility. That is SO true.

JanH

Look up said...

Tom

The rich young ruler lived quite a holy life, yet that holy life was no evidence of his salvation.

The Pharisees lived a holy life, yet that holy life was no evidence of their salvation.

Saul was a king anointed by God, who repented on many an occasion, yet that was no evidence of his salvation.

Judas walked with Christ, preaching the gospel, and serving Him, yet that was no evidence of his salvation.

Lou Martuneac said...

Hi Jean/All:

I wrote a brief article on The Rich Young Ruler I think you will find it helpful.


LM

Tom Mahon said...

Look up said...

>>The rich young ruler lived quite a holy life, yet that holy life was no evidence of his salvation.<<

The bible does not say that.

>>The Pharisees lived a holy life, yet that holy life was no evidence of their salvation.<<

That is not what Jesus said about the Pharisees. In fact, he called them hypocrites.

>>Saul was a king anointed by God, who repented on many an occasion, yet that was no evidence of his salvation.<<

Saul was not a Christian. But as King, he was required to live a holy life.

>>Judas walked with Christ, preaching the gospel, and serving Him, yet that was no evidence of his salvation.<<

Judas was not living a holy life while he was walking with Jesus. In fact, he is described as thief.

However, nothing you have said answered the questions I asked, and you conveniently refused to comment on 1 Peter 1:13-16. Ignoring this passage will not make it go away!

In addition, you cannot and must not use other passages of Scripture to contradict what Peter was inspired to write. Are picking and choosing from the bible the bits that you believe support your views? If that is the case, you are on very dangerous ground.

Look up said...

Tom

Of course a Christian is called to be holy, that is why hypocrites imitate it.

The Christian realizes the call to be holy and that they never can perfectly attain it. The hypocrites however, think they can and have attained it, and spend most of their time devoted to imitation holiness (IE sabbatarianism).

With hypocrites such as the Pharisees working so hard at perfecting their imitation holiness, that is why 'holiness' is not what one looks for to define a saved person.

Angela said...

What do you look for to define a saved person?

Jean said...

Hi Angela,

Very good question.

I think it all comes down to; What do you think of yourself, and most importantly, What do you think of Christ? Most in Lordship camp fail in this, because they are still blind.

Personally I have realised that many who profess Christ with much zeal are very much lost. This is because they do not see themselves for who they really are (lack of repantance)and they do not know who Christ is (lack of saving faith). This is true for many who follow and endorse the Lordship Gospel. It is also true for those of the so called easy believiesm. Same for the Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Hindus, atheists, Muslims, the list goes on. Many are on the wide road that leads to Hell, its only a few that have eternal life compared to the lost.

Angela said...

Hi Jean,

I have sat down in front of this computer several times to talk with you about your article but the words just wouldn't come. I have never gotten "involved" on an internet blog. Who care's what I have to say anyway, right? :)

After much thought and study in the precious Word, I simply want to say this. As you continue to grow in grace and knowledge about the Lord Jesus Christ, I would implore you to please be careful with what you post about conclusions you have come to. There is power in the words we use and we are cautioned in Scripture about the tongue and the damage we can inflict. Just consider this. What if the Lord leads you in a different direction on any given topic you have discussed, and gives you more understanding or correction or clarification. Think of the many people who have read your words and been influenced by what you say. We are all prone to error as we still struggle with sin. There is a danger of being a stumbling block to others and even offending and harming a "weaker brother or sister" in Christ.

I sat here and read the way you and another blogger jumped on "lordstrophy" now known as "paid for," who I know as Melissa. A dear sister in Christ who's only intent was to help and to try to come along beside and encourage and ask questions to better understand a position you have taken. She has shared with me her heart for YOU and her concern. She accepted your words of rebuke about a screen name. I have been blessed to watch the Lord work in her life and the life of her family. I have watched how He is using her to share the gospel with those around her, but you guys basically say she is lost.

Are you so quick to condemn those who are now accepted by God based on the righteousness of Christ?

Please remember that we GROW in grace and knowledge, but we are cautioned to handle that knowledge in the right way. What do we have that we did not receive? Nothing! It's all of grace! The more we learn about His grace and mercy towards us the more humility that should produce in us.

Jean, I pray you will consider what I have shared with you.

Blessings in Christ,
Angela

ricky earle said...

Jonah 3:10 reads, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not."

specifically - "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way".