This is an issue I feel I have to address for many reasons. One thing that I have learnt in my 2 and half years as a born again Christian is that God is sovereign. In addition to that He does not need or want human advocates. With the issue of Slavery Christians are often put in a corner because they are trying to defend God and at the same time the bible nowhere directly attacks slavery. The bible does not condemn slavery. So Christians try to act like Job's friends and try to defend God in a rather foolish way by condemning slavery, as if God forgot to do it Himself in the bible. I think this is a very unwise thing for a Christian to do because if slavery was wrong, God would have said so himself. But He doesn't say its wrong. As John MacArthur says in his study bible, " The New Testament nowhere directly attacks slavery; had it done so, the resulting slave insurrections would have been brutally suppressed and the message of the gospel hopelessly confused with that of social reform. Instead Christianity undermined the evils of slavery by changing the hearts of slaves and masters".
In the New Testament Paul writes a letter to Philemon, who was a prominent Christian. Philemon owned a slave called Onesemus, who ran away. Somehow he came into contact with Paul in Rome and as a result Onesemus became a Christian. The apostle Paul quickly grew to love this runaway slave and wanted to keep him in Rome. But as Onesemus had run away from his master he had broken Roman Law, and Paul knew that this was an issue that had to be dealt with. So Paul sent Onesemus back to Colosse to his master Philemon. Paul writes this beautiful personal letter to Philemon urging him to forgive Onesemus and to welcome him back as a slave and a brother in Christ. Now the issue is this, if slavery was wrong this was a perfect opportunity for Paul, the great apostle to condemn it. But he doesn't, he actually urges a slave to go back and serve his master. Why? So many Christians find it hard to deal with this book and they cant understand why Paul never condemns slavery.
I understand that there is so much evil in slavery, when masters abuse their slaves. That is wrong. The bible condemns treating others in an evil way. So this is not the issue. But slavery in itself is not wrong. Just as husbands can abuse wives, does it mean marriage is evil? Or parents can abuse their children, does it mean parenting is wrong? Because masters can be evil to their slaves, it doesn't mean that slavery is wrong. Just as wives are to be submissive to their husbands, likewise slaves are to be submissive to their masters.
I believe the concept of Slavery is a very deep one, it also characterises the relationship that every human being has either with God or with the Evil One. What many people fail to realise is that the bible calls every human being a slave. We are all slaves, either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness ( Romans 6:16). If the bible would have condemned slavery then the gospel itself would have been robbed of its meaning on some way. If slavery is wrong, then wives should not submit to their husbands, children should not obey parents, women should became equal to men and preach in churches ( which is forbidden in the bible by the way), and mostly no one should call Jesus their master or submit to the authority of God. For this reason, the bible does not condemn slavery, because the whole concept of Christians serving God would be meaningless. Human slavery is a very difficult part of history, and the fact that godly people in the bible owned slaves, makes it more hard for people to understand. As humans its natural for all of us to want to be free than to be a slave, because slavery means you are in bondage. Slaves in biblical times had no rights at all, they were regarded as property. But even though we all want to be free, the reality is that we are not. True liberty is freedom from sin. Sin ultimately leads to eternal punishment of torment in Hell. Jesus Christ, the gentle master, of whom I myself am a slave to, breaks that bondage by placing us under His light yoke and easy burden (Mathew 11:30)
I do not believe slavery is wrong, because a) The bible does not condemn slavery and b) Slavery makes so much sense and to say slavery is wrong we rob the gospel off its meaning and even Election. The concept of total submission and slavery is at the very heart of Christ's gospel. In order to be saved you have to be a slave of Christ. God is the one who chooses us, he saves us. He buys us with a price, the blood of Jesus. We are called to do the will of God, not ours. Not unto us but to Him. We are told to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily and follow Jesus. We are told to hate our own self and love God even before our own families. The whole New Testament sounds like slave talk to me. If you are a Christian you will understand what it means to be bought and be a slave. I have had disagreements with some Christians as they say slavery is wrong, its as if they are implying that God forgot to put that in the bible, but i disagree. I find that people who do not understand the concept of slavery do not understand the character and nature of God Himself and they do not understand what it means to be Christian. I love Mary's song in Luke 1 when she says ' ...for he has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant, (i.e female slave)..'. Here is Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, calling herself a slave of her master - God. Mary perfectly understood what it meant to be a slave of her Lord, and if you are truly saved, you will not find the concept of slavery insulting or evil.
Tuesday, 5 August 2008
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93 comments:
jean said...
I think this is a very unwise thing for a Christian to do because if slavery was wrong, God would have said so himself.
Or maybe your God you put so much stock in was created by man and used to justify slavery.
jean said...
But slavery in itself is not wrong. Just as husbands can abuse wives, does it mean marriage is evil? Or parents can abuse their children, does it mean parenting is wrong?
In marriage, a husband doesn't own his wife, just as a parent doesn't own their children. It is the ownership of a human being that is wrong. If a wife is abused by her husband, she can get out of a marriage. If a child is abused by a parent, social services can claim custody. Your analogy blows.
jean said...
If slavery is wrong, then wives should not submit to their husbands, children should not obey parents, women should became equal to men and preach in churches ( which is forbidden in the bible by the way), and mostly no one should call Jesus their master or submit to the authority of God
Wives should not submit to their husbands, they are both human beings and are equal. Women are also equal to men and should be treated that way.
jean said...
I do not believe slavery is wrong, because a) The bible does not condemn slavery and b) Slavery makes so much sense and to say slavery is wrong we rob the gospel off its meaning and even Election.
Again, not even attempting to think for yourself.
It amazes me how someone living in the 21st century would advocate slavery. It so preposterous that I never even imagined myself having this argument with anyone. Hopefully, you change your worldview and quit being a slave to an invisible dictator, but until then I'll have the opinion that you're nothing more than a cuntscab.
You are really turning me on Jean.
1) a Mental Health Nurse
2) Dominatrix
3) Black Woman
3 very big points for you.
Mudskipper,
I saw the bondage art in your blog. Jean says she submissive, you might want to break out the cross and some rope for this one.
mudskipper
I may be forced to delete your comments as I do not find them appropriate for this blog.
And to everyone please do not use offensive language as again I may have to start deleting some comments. I expect respect and dignity. I do appriciate the comments but i think appropriate languange must be the norm, for the benefit of other readers too....
Thanks
Jean
Jean,
You want respect and dignity? Why do you deserve it when you have so little respect for human life that you could advocate the ownership of another human being.
Mjarsulic said
Wives should not submit to their husbands, they are both human beings and are equal. Women are also equal to men and should be treated that way.
I'm afraid you have it all wrong, its a sin for a wive not to submit to her husband. And women and men are not equal. We are all one in Christ and we are equal to God, but in relation to each other women and men are not equal. God gave us different roles.
i have covered these issues in my recent posts. Please read my posts on submissive wives and one on Proverbs 31, the bible study. Thats the whole point of my blog, to equip women to love their husbands and submit to their leadership.
Jean,
From reading your blog and comments, I get the impression that you believe the role of women is to stay home, cook, clean, get pregnant, and raise children. You have to understand that it is a woman's choice on how she lives her life. If a woman wants to work outside the house she has the same rights as any man to.
BTW, I was wondering how you propose that society starts this godly slavery system that you are advocating. Are slaves only going to be taken from certain segments of society based on certain attributes(e.g., race, religion, sex, etc.)? If so, what attributes would you choose? In other words, how would you determine who in society would become the slaves?
mjarsulic said
From reading your blog and comments, I get the impression that you believe the role of women is to stay home, cook, clean, get pregnant, and raise children.
If you read my posts corectly, my blog deals with specifically wives and mothers. It is not every woman's calling to be a mother or even a wife. God has given some women the gift of being single. So I dont believe every woman should stay at home. A woman can by all means work outside the home, if she is single, if her children are grown up, or if she has no kids to look after. What I believe is wrong is for a mother who has young children to work outside her home because by this she is neglecting her children and her home, and also her husband. Having said that today I was watching BBC News and a report claimed that according to research most working mothers feel that they cant balance working outside the home and looking after children. The two dont meet in the middle. another report I read the other day said if most working mothers had a choice most of them would rather stay at home as by doing this they feel they will give better care to their children. Also from personal research most young mothers I know find it hard to live their children in the care of others and go to work.
Jean, I read your post and understand what you are saying. Amen!
mjarsulic said, "a husband doesn't own his wife."
Jean is not saying that at all. It's very plain, you're just adding to it.
Submission is not about being boss; it for decision making. I may be equal or even better than my boss, but somebody has to make the decision--the final decision.
You also called Jean a cuntscab that is extremely derogatory.
It seems you're a slave owner want-to-be, and mudskipper is a slave of his lusts.
A good person's words are like pure silver; a wicked person's ideas are worthless. (Proverbs 10:20)
Jean, I read your post and understand what you are saying. Amen!
So, you defend slavery too?
Jean is not saying that at all. It's very plain, you're just adding to it.
No, I was commenting her analogy that between slavery and marriage and how they are completely different because a husband does not own his wife.
Submission is not about being boss; it for decision making. I may be equal or even better than my boss, but somebody has to make the decision--the final decision.
And a woman has the right to make "the final decision" just as well as her husband.
You also called Jean a cuntscab that is extremely derogatory.
Damn straight. I was expressing my low opinion of her for advocating slavery.
It seems you're a slave owner want-to-be, and mudskipper is a slave of his lusts.
I was ridiculing Jean. It's what I do when people have absolutely stupid ideas.
A good person's words are like pure silver; a wicked person's ideas are worthless. (Proverbs 10:20)
I agree. Jean's idea ("SLAVERY IS NOT WRONG") is worthless.
Well mjarsulic you said, "And a woman has the right to make "the final decision" just as well as her husband."
That marriage will last a week. Two people making the final decision. See you in my ER.
"I was ridiculing Jean. It's what I do when people have absolutely stupid ideas."
Who's standard? Yours, of course. You don't submit to anyone? Boss, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband, police, raytractors?
You want to be a slave owner don't you? You want to have the final decision in everything, so it seems. It's that kind of slave owner we DON'T want.
For I see that you are full of bitter envy and are a prisoner of sin." (Acts 8:23)
Jean,
You still didn't answer my question on how you would determine who becomes slaves.
That marriage will last a week. Two people making the final decision. See you in my ER.
Yes, I believe two people can come to a consensus on a large variety of issues.
Who's standard? Yours, of course. You don't submit to anyone? Boss, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband, police, raytractors?
The standard of any rational society. I do not see how there is any logical connection between answering a request from your boss and slavery.
You want to be a slave owner don't you? You want to have the final decision in everything, so it seems. It's that kind of slave owner we DON'T want.
Another logical disconnect on your part. I'm the one opposing slavery in any form.
"That marriage will last a week. Two people making the final decision. See you in my ER."
That's funny, my parents who make decisions mutually have been married over 30 years.
Did you know that atheist marriages have a far lower divorce rate than those of christians? How does that fit in with your submission scenario?
Choco, have been encouraged. Keep fighting the good fight of Faith in Christ.
maragon said, "That's funny, my parents who make decisions mutually have been married over 30 years."
The discussion is not about mutual decisions; it is about the final decision.
Who makes the final decisions in your life, your work, your relationships?
"
The discussion is not about mutual decisions; it is about the final decision.
Who makes the final decisions in your life, your work, your relationships?"
And the final decision is what was mutually decided.
Just because you're incapable of having an equal relationship doesn't mean that the rest of the population is equally deranged.
Jean,
You have ignored my question concerning the implementation of "godly" slavery. Could you please elaborate on who would become slaves?
Mjarsulic
What you have to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they had nothing to live on. Slaves in biblical times actually benefited from the practice. Some masters treated their slaves very well. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master. This is what I mean by slavery in a godly way.
This was something I did not want to touch on as I thought was irrelavent, but now i notice maybe this is what you want me to say.
The slavery of the past few centuries was often based on skin color. Black people were considered slaves because of their nationality – many slave owners truly believed black people to be “inferior human beings” to white people. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery, God is no respector of persons. In fact the bible tells us to love each other, to put other people before us, to be humble, to be kind to each other. Slavery of the last few century was just an evil act, there was nothing biblical about it. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms of slavery. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries. As to who should become slaves and who should be the master, I myself am 26 years old, and have never seen slavery done in my life, I have only read history books and the bible.As I said in biblical times slavery was mostly voluntary, but as for today I cant see that still happening. So that is a question I cant answer. And I am talking from a biblical point of view. Most slavery that is done in the world today is nothing but evil and people satisfying their sinful passions. But in biblical times Slavery was very different from today. And also the purpose of the bible is not to upgrade social standards of men, its to point men to salvation. God did save free men and slaves, instead of trying to fix their social standing, He fixed their hearts instead.
Jean,
You are missing the point. Slavery as described in the bible is still a horrible institution. You mention that slavery in the Bible is not based on race, but social status. I do not see how that makes it any better. Essentially, it makes the rich the masters and the poor the slaves. Real fair.
You state that sometimes, people chose to be slaves. However, you seem to miss the point that the bible states that people could be born into slavery (e.g. Exodus 21:4). Also, a man can sell his daughter into slavery (e.g. Exodus 21:7). As Penn and Teller said, "Not even in Nevada". Finally, the bible commands inhumane treatment towards slaves. For example, if a slave is offered freedom, but does not want to leave his wife and children, a hole is drilled in his ear and he becomes the master's property for the rest of his life.
In my view, the biblical implementation of slavery is just as bad as the more modern implementation.
It was system of paying off debts when there was no other way to pay them. You were set free when the debts were payed. Unless you wanted to stay and be the servant of the master. Much like a butler. Is that type of servant hood wrong? If you owe any kind of debt, you are a slave to that creditor until that debt is paid. It is the same concept. The slavery of the last couple of centuries that we are most familiar with is wrong without a doubt and the bible does not approve of it.
To be honest, I'm a little saddened to see people advocating slavery in today's day and age.
I'm even more shocked that a black woman is advocating slavery.
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. One thing is abundantly clear from your writings though: you're a good and caring person, and I wish you the best.
Kaitlyn
I don't see how the colour of my skin has anything to do with the issue......
You know the most amazing thing is when God saved me He freed me from the bondage of always looking at people based on the colour of their skin. Now when I look at anyone all I care about is that are they saved... If a person of another skin colour was saved, I will get on with them more than a person of my own colour who knows not the Lord. So colour means nothing to me, God looks at the heart. When I read the bible, I take it as God's word with the final authority, what has my skin colour got to do with what the bible says about slavery?
I don't see how the colour of my skin has anything to do with the issue...
Well, the color of your skin and the fact that you're a woman makes your advocating slavery all the more shocking because there's a long history of white, male oppression of not only black people, but also women.
So to answer your question, the color of your skin has historical precedent regarding the issue of slavery.
Have a wonderful day, Jean! :)
Going into endless debates about historical racism and the slavery of recent centuries is not profitable to anyone, especially to me. And that is not the purpose of this article. There are a lot of people in the world who are doing that already. The concept of slavery is at the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ, whom I myself am a slave to. Kaitlyn 3 years ago I would have thought like you. I would have agreed to everything you are saying. The purpose of this article is to specify that the message of the bible is so offensive to human wisdom, thats why God gives us a new heart when we are born again. If you read the gospels in the bible Jesus spoke a lot about slavery. We are all slaves in some way Kaitlyn, but Jesus freed us from the bondage of sin by buying us by his blood. That is the purpose of this article, not debating about racism and all that. All I care about is to be a faithful servant/slave to my Lord, and to defend the bible, I have so much joy in that, in fact that is all there is for me, to see the God of the bible glorified. Debating about racism to me is useless and not profitable.
Don't worry Jean, I think you're a wonderful person,and I don't want to argue with you, However, maybe we might want to bring this up with Ray and ask what he thinks about slavery.
What do you think?
I love Mary's song in Luke 1 when she says ' ...for he has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant, (i.e female slave)..'. Here is Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, calling herself a slave of her master - God. Mary perfectly understood what it meant to be a slave of her Lord, and if you are truly saved, you will not find the concept of slavery insulting or evil
Mary calling herself a slave of the Lord is very much different from human being owning another human being. I can not understand how a black woman can think that slavery is right. A hundred years ago you would have been put to death (by your owner) for saying something so counter cultural as that.
I will not entertain a debate about the abuses of slavery but being a "slave" to the Christian is important! Service and slavery are not really the same thing, and it is extremely unfortunate that the full impact of the expression "doulos" has been obscured in our English translations for so long.
Duolos is not an ambiguous term. It suggests a very specific concept, which-while repugnant to our culture and our natural minds-should not be toned down or backed away from. It is the main Greek word that was used to describe the lowest abject bond slave-a person who was literally owned by a master who could legally force him to work without wages. In other words, a doulos was a person without standing or rights.
In this regard, Jesus' portrayal of discipleship as "slavery" had no more appeal to the popular tastes or felt needs of His times than it does today.
What does Jesus mean when He says, "follow Me"? When Jesus called people to follow Him, He was not seeking companions to be His sidekicks or admireres whom He could entertain with miracles. He was calling people to yeild completely and unreservedly to His Lordship. You are His slave if you are genuine!
In this regard, Jesus' portrayal of discipleship as "slavery" had no more appeal to the popular tastes or felt needs of His times than it does today.
What does Jesus mean when He says, "follow Me"? When Jesus called people to follow Him, He was not seeking companions to be His sidekicks or admireres whom He could entertain with miracles. He was calling people to yeild completely and unreservedly to His Lordship. You are His slave if you are genuine!
May the lord raise more people like this! Who understands the true message of the Gospel. We are slaves of Christ!
The only things worthy of saying to the author of this blog are obscene and offensive.
The author of this blog is obscene and offensive.
The author is the type of christian that makes atheists like me want to fight with all our might against religion.
You are digging your own religions grave. Good on ya!
Wow, it is quite scary that people like you still exist Jean. Perhaps if you were actually a person of any moral worth you wouldn't have to comb scriptures in order to make a decision on the legitimacy of slavery. Philosophers have time and time again proven the Bible to be a fallacious document, and its relevance in any decision of actual importance is nonexistent. It seems somewhat paradoxical that you prescribe perfect goodness to a being who could create a Hell with the infallible foreknowledge of human nature; and, therefore with the intent of sending the vast majority of people into everlasting torment. And now you're going to sit here and try to make moral arguments based on the writings of such a being? Give me a break... you're a joke.
" Having said that today I was watching BBC News and a report claimed that according to research most working mothers feel that they cant balance working outside the home and looking after children. The two dont meet in the middle. another report I read the other day said if most working mothers had a choice most of them would rather stay at home as by doing this they feel they will give better care to their children. Also from personal research most young mothers I know find it hard to live their children in the care of others and go to work."
Yes, women WANT to spend more time with their children, but for most people, it's not a practical reality. I'm sure a lot of men who work (which is apparently not a bad thing for you) want to spend more time with their children, as well. Does that mean that no one should work because they want to spend time with their children? Most people with children need both parents to work to make enough money. Staying at home is a luxury for most people. Where in the Bible does it say that married women without children can work outside the home? I'm pretty sure it doesn't say that... You're picking and choosing.
And slavery? Yeah, it's a bad thing. The Bible mentions slavery, but does it say that slavery isn't a bad thing? And what you described sounds more like servitude. Being a servant isn't a bad thing. It is a choice. Slavery exists when you are forced to work for someone and they own you. People married their siblings and had sex with their children in the Bible: is this also a good thing?
You do not worship God, you live in fear of yourself and you worship the bible. Slavery IS wrong, and you are a slave to your book.
A perfect example why black people need to leave Christianity. Thank all that is Good that I left that rubbish behind. I never thought I would see the day that a black woman would defend slavery. Please don't breed. I would pay you to sterilize yourself.
Peter stands and applauds Christopher's comment.
Slavery in its real form (the enslavement of Africans by white Southerners) was nothing but pure evil. There was nothing sacred or defensible about it. It was a crime that was only washed clean by the sacrificial blood of the Union Army and the martyrs of the civil rights movement.
Jean, you supporting slavery is like a Jew supporting the Nazi death camps. No wonder so many commenters have suggested that you're either an idiot or insane.
Perhaps you're merely one of those neurotics who thrives on being humiliated.
But I'm writing this comment in the hope that you want to be taken seriously. I'm also writing today in the hope that want to promote Christianity as being a faith that benefits both its practicioners and humanity in general. If that's the case, you ought to quit the sect you're involved with and find a denomination that's not based on such undeniably evil views as the defense of slavery.
Just to give one example of the weakness of your (and John MacArthur's) theological defense of slavery: All that nonsense about Philemon is based on the total misunderstanding of the situation. If a Christian leader had said anything else under the circumstances, the Romans would have crucified every last one of them.
Paul's need to protect the infant Christian community does *not* provide a Biblical basis for thinking that slavery itself should be a permanent feature of society, or that Christians shouldn't support campaigns against it, or that Christians should support its re-introduction at this late date.
If John MacArthur had supported the Holocaust, or child molesting, or human sacrifice, or any other such crimes, by misusing Biblical quotes, would you feel compelled to agree with him? What if he told you that it was in the Bible for you to drink poisoned Kool-Aid at his command? How can you fail to smell the brimstone stench that oozes up from his misteaching on slavery?
I would like to buy your daughter.
Don't worry, as a good Christian, I promise to follow all the rules of the Bible set out in Exodus 21. Don't worry, I don't intend to keep her as a house-keeper, I promise to marry her. I understand that if I don't marry her I have to free her, so, you can be sure I'll marry her. And I promise if I take another wife, (I think I want two or three), she'll get exactly the same amount of food and clothing and time in the sack with me as she got before I got married again, because I understand that if I don't, I have to free her. I also promise to only beat her enough that she can recover in a day or two. Gosh, I wouldn't want her to slack off on the cooking and cleaning. I also promise not to blind her or knock out her teeth, because, then I would have to free her.
Now, we both know your daughter might be a little reluctant to marry some stranger her parents chose for her, but, really, if the money's good, tough shit for her, right? After all, she has to obey you, right? That's what your God commands, right? What is a good price, do you think?
Think for yourself.
Driving the Peterbilt: Bible Critique in a Jugular Vein
By Ryogam
Once again, I am disgusted by the ancient "wisdom" of the Bible, and the superiority of modern morals, however flawed, is made all the more blatantly obvious to me. When a black woman advocates slavery, I know there must be something horribly wrong with her religion.
I'm glad that there are many people here who recognize that Jean's views are unjustifiable in any context but a Biblical one. Her arguments are not unlike those of pre-Civil War slaveowners.
Slavery is not a God-approved privilege, but a crime against humanity, as Exodus 21:20-21 shows. A master could beat his slaves to the brink of death, without fear of punishment.
"And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."
Surely anyone who can recognize the value of humans beings as greater than that of money, who can recognize that slavery is a terrible crime against the rights all humans should have, has outgrown the need for such a primitive "morality" as is found in the Bible.
This is one of the best arguments against Christianity that I have ever read.
Jean: "You know the most amazing thing is when God saved me He freed me from the bondage of always looking at people based on the colour of their skin."
You mean it took God to stop you from being a racist? I feel sorry fr you; I reject racism based on more realistic criteria and need no non-existent dictator to tell me it is wrong.
... Jesus freed us from the bondage of sin by buying us by his blood.
There's no evidence the sufferings of Christ (if they occurred) reduced 'sin'. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. The Catholic churches of Spain and Portugal during the 16th-19th centuries knew the story of the crucifixion well, and yet, they whole-heartedly supported the raping, pillaging, mass-murder, and widespread vandalism the Spanish and Portuguese empires of those times engaged in. In the Thirty Years War, a third of Europe was murdered - all by Christians who presumably knew the story of the crucifixion. Far from being 'freed from the bondage of sin', Christianity drove otherwise good people to do terrible things to each other.
Ironically, expansion of rights and education for women has been by far the most effective method of preventing humans from harming each other.
Well, since this a black woman saying that slavery is ok and that women should be subservient to their husbands, it must not be racist or sexist, right?
Wrong. Here we see a prime example of the internalization of harmful social ideas into a person whom it benefits the least. By saying that women must submit to their husbands and let them have authority over them, saying that women cannot teach or hold authority over a man in general, she is sexist. It doesn't matter that she's a woman.
As for slavery, I agree with llewelly above, this blog post is an incredibly strong argument in favor of thinking for yourself with regards to matters of morality. The mere fact that defending this religion entails arguing that slavery, a deplorable historical practice, betrays the worthlessness of the text this is based upon with regards to morality.
On top of that, this is even more interesting because the author of the blog post is black, and so you might think that maybe they might have been swayed by the atrocity that white people committed upon black people to realize that this practice is wrong. Alas, they have internalized this philosophy and has herself become racist.
Who decides who becomes slaves? Do you realize that in order to actually be a slave you have to give up your Free Will? In the book On Liberty, Philosopher John Stuart Mill argued that you cannot willingly become a slave because you cannot willingly give up free will. (in a moral and legal sense) If you believe God gave you free will then you are disrespecting God by giving it up, aren't you?
The idea that a marriage must have one person have authority over another is based upon the naive idea that two people who love each other and want to spend their lives together cannot negotiate when it comes to making decisions. If you believe that submission is what it takes to keep a marriage together, then you obviously don't know how to work together and compromise on contentious issues.
Take it from me, I'm a happily married man... and I just emailed this link to my feminist, sociologist, blogging wife. :)
So, a twelve-year-old girl is abducted to be sold off as a sex slave. A lot of guys are ready to pay big $$ to be the first to rape her, after that she will still turn a good profit for her masters until she is too old to be of desire to child molesters. At that point it will be more cost effective to kill her than to keep her or take the chance that she will lead law enforcement to her master.
But she should obey and let guys rape her several times a day for a few years. She should not escape if the opportunity comes up. She is a slave and should obey her master.
You must think God is one sick sadist.
Maybe you should learn something about the state of life for the 27 million people in this world who are slaves at this moment before you put God's seal of approval on it.
The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.
Slavery creates incentives to be racist in numerous important ways. To list just a few:
(a) If a race is viewed as undeserving of freedom, they become slaves, thus increasing the availability of slaves to the slaveholders.
(b) If a race is viewed as undeserving of respect, slaveholders will face no effective restrictions on the treatment of slaves of that race.
(c) If slaves are defined by race, children automatically become slaves, increasing the number of slaves held by the slaveholders.
(d) If slaves are defined by race, slaves are easier to identify, easier to separate from masters, and thus have a much more difficult escaping, and remaining free once escaped.
Furthermore - to claim the slavery supported by the Bible had nothing to do with racism is untrue:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
This idea that slavery benefited slaves in biblical times as an argument in favour of it is just bogus. When a society puts a person into a corner and makes them choose between 2 horrible options, one of them being homeless and the risk of starving or coming to other types of harm, and the other being living under servitude but at least being safe and fed, it seems to me to be a perversion for defenders of the society (or advocates of the rules) to point out that the slave chose and benefited from slavery. This was a choice made under intense coercion by the structure of society.
Dear Jean,
I think this a very interesting post. By posting it you have made a fool of yourself and your religion - which can't be what you've intended. Look, no doubt your faith provides you with immense pleasure, basking in the love of christ. Unfortunately, your theological speculations have made you make a deeply silly pronouncement - that slavery is justified.
Many people find this very offensive, and you, as a black woman, should understand exactly why. The bible is wrong to support slavery, period. Slavery is wrong. Double period.
Are you woman enough to say "oops, um, sorry"?
I am sure that you are a wonderful woman, and a great mother. But just at the moment you seem a little obsessed with religion - how about spending a bit less time reading your bible, blogging for christ, and praying? I mean, it's led to you making a fool of yourself - on the internet! And couldn't you spend a bit more time loving your kids and playing with them? Isn't that the goldy thing to do? And aren't they the true gift of god to you? Stop blogging, and start kissing.
All the best
Anthony
Wow, this only confirms how crazy you religious fundamentalists are. It truly boggles the mind. I can only hope that in a couple of years you will look back on this post and realize just how stupid and insensitive it is.
Jean, I was wondering if you would like to come live with me and become my slave? My house could use some tidying up and my lawns need to be mowed. I will treat you real nice (just like in the biblical times, right?). You can live in my garage and I'll feed you. I make the final decision around here so you will have to listen or I might have to beat you with a whip until you heed my word.
You are completely right Jean, slavery doesn't sound wrong to me either. NOW DO MY DISHES!!
I don't know where to begin. I could call you a miserable little cunt. Or I could insult your pittiful intellignce. Or I could accuse you of being a troll. So many options.
I really hope that this is a fakeblog. That would make me feel better about the current state of humanity.
Given that the book of Titus was written after the new covenant, the Christian literalist is forced to concede that God condones slavery.
Here are the relevant verses (Titus 2:9 - 10):
9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.
If the Bible is truly the inerrant word of God, than God had ample opportunities to provide instructions to people for all times after the New Covenant regarding slavery. He complicitly condones the practice by providing both instructions to slaves (found elsewhere) and the administration of slaves by their Christian masters (found in the above chapters).
A god who commands us elsewhere in the NT to love the least of us like we would our supposed savior Jesus Christ would surely command us to free our slaves from bondage.
Me? I think the idea that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is one of the most idiotic ideas ever formulated by a human and that slavery is an abhorrent and evil practice we should also commit ourselves to abolishing. Anyone at the teen-ager level who is halfway smart and hasn't been brainwashed by conservative Christian churches can see the Bible's contradictions, illogical premises (like I just pointed out), and often - the promotion or condoning of downright evil practices such as slavery or stoning women adulterers (along with some very good ideas as well, like the idea of grace, and treating others like we would like to be treated - though those ideas are not unique to the Bible but instead predate it by several hundred years).
This post is a classic example of just how regressive fundamentalist christianity is.
Go ahead, worship your god. Submit to your husband.
Just keep it in your family and out of the public sphere.
When you wind up beaten, in mind and/or body, don't come running to us with your complaint.
Submit.
It looks like you've thought a lot about this, and congrats on posting something that gets other people thinking, too.
These were my thoughts.
I think there's a big difference between being a slave to God and being a slave to another man. If you're a slave to another man, then the right that God gave you--free will--is taken away. Slaves cannot choose for themselves what to do. The Bible says that no one should make another man a god above the one God. Yet that's what slavery does; slaves must give their master something God gave to them, which means their master is more important than God.
Furthermore, to say you're a slave to God refuses His great gift of free will. Slaves have no choice, no free will. To say I'm a slave to God would mean that I don't follow God because it's the right path, I don't follow God because He speaks to my heart, I follow God because I have no choice. I think that's pretty insulting to both Christianity and God Himself. Who are we to say we don't want God's gift of choice?
I think I'd prefer to be able to choose to love God, and be a servant of God, and be thankful to God that He gave us free will and gave us instructions on why not to be slaves. I can serve with love, devotion, and spread God's message that way. ;)
J
If slavery is alright, is genocide also alright?
There is confusion about slavery during the NT times when Paul the Apostle lived, and racial slavery that went on prior to America's civil war.
In Paul's time, slavery was not based on race during biblical times. In fact, people sold themselves because they could not get out of debt or didn't have enough money to provide for their family.
There was even some people who just chose slavery so their master could provide for them. So slavery was more as a social status than a racial one. Slavery by choice because of one's social status was an acceptable one.
However, the Bible does in fact condemn racial slavery. A prime example found in the Bible, is when Egypt enslaved the Hebrews. The Hebrews were not slaves by choice but rather because they were just Hebrews.
Then God lifted up Moses to lead His people out of slavery from Egypt after a series of plagues (Exodus 7-11). This in fact tell us God was against racial slavery!
With the confusion that focuses on racial slavery, it's not surprising people would be shocked that some (not all types) of slavery was acceptable.
Joseph: You wrote:
When you wind up beaten, in mind and/or body, don't come running to us with your complaint.
Unlike primitive civilizations that allowed men to own women and slaves, modern societies have resources and people willing to help rescue those in abusive and harmful circumstances, including those situations Jean seems willing to put herself and her children into. If she should come to harm, I think that we should help her out. This is an aspect of our culture that should transcend disbelief or belief in the teachings of some religion. Our willingness to help others should come from empathy. If we punish, or deny help to, those who make stupid mistakes that harm no one but themselves, we will be just as bad as the Biblical societies that would have seen "eye for an eye" justice as a surprisingly lax punishment.
This is an interesting question, but I believe your initial base is wrong. By making ourselves slaves to God, we are submitting to His will. This is not to say we can own slaves because God does it. We are not equal to God, we are equals in God's sight. What is right for God does not determine what is right for us as human beings. We often commit the sin of thinking we know what God's will is/was/will be. This is the fallacy. We can't know what God knows. My God is omnipotent and omniscient. He is the Alpha and the Omega, There were none before him and there will be none after. How can I, who was created by him as part of his master plan begin to even think that I am on the same level as he who created all that is? Slavery to God does not mean that its OK for man to have slaves. God is perfect in his love for us, even if we don't see or deserve it. We are flawed in that we are given the choice to believe or not believe. We have to choose to serve God, he has already chosen us.
I applaud your choice to open this up for discussion and pray that you will examine the question you are asking. Remember too, that our head and mind is where sin reside. The evil one whispers in your ear and tells you to question what you know in your heart is right.
Blessings to you in yours in Christ.
Apeman/Anthony:
You might want to go back through Jean's posts and read the one where she said that children should not feel good about themselves, that they and all of us should realize that we're fundamentally evil and that no matter how hard we try to not be, we will always be fundamentally evil and sinners in the eyes of "the lord" - which is why our only hope is to accept jesus christ as our lord and savior. And this is not just her thinking theoretically. She applies this philosophy in raising her young child and she celebrates when her child internalizes it. It's utter child abuse.
Oh, and to boot, she's a mental health nurse. I just hope - but cannot really imagine - that she manages to leave her lunacy at the front door when she goes to work with people who are very vulnerable at their point of contact with her.
hey there, Jean Gasho-Musuka, can I just call you Slave for short?
Listen, there's no point debating with you about the merits/drawbacks of owning and controling another human being against their will (remember, the slavery you take part in is impossible...its like trying to rape the willing).
What I can point out to you is that all your efforts are futile and in vain, because actually, my friend, Jesus never existed at all.
You see, if there was a human being who actually performed all the miracles attributed to Jesus, we should know about it outside of the Bible, in standard historical record. Guess how many of those records exist?
There were DOZENS of historians and record keepers in and around the Mediterranean at the supposed time of Jesus, but not one mentions him. At all. Period. Wouldn't it seem logical that if he really did exist and had such a track record thatwe would ALL know about it? Or would it be more likely that these attributes were assigned to a fictious person years after the supposed time period in order to maintain social control...
I dare you to research the issue. Most likely you will simply choose to ignore it because you have the amazing ability to buy into total horse manure without any proof (faith), so anythign that challenges that is dealt with in the same fashion...ignore it or destroy it.
Ill throw you a bone, Slavie...the only four writers to ever mention anyone even close to Jesus were as follows:
1. Pliny the Ungar
2. Tacitus
3. Suetonius
All these men wrote of a person named Chritos. This is a title, not a name, and it means "the annointed one".
There was a fourth named Josephus, but his work has been proven to be a fraud for centuries.
By the way, because you have used your religion to warp and distort the concept of humanity (and taken a collosal leap backwards in equality and civil rights...you're a black woman, how dare you...), you have made a prime example of how other evils can be justified in the name of a religion. So tell me, why don't you perform a female circumsicion on your daughters? They'll REALLY know how to submit then...
I have been finding it hard to say what I want without being hurtful.
If virtue is blindly following thousands year old nonsense, then yes you're virtuous. Just as Islamic women are virtuous for wearing burkas and allowing their daughters to be killed for the "family" honor.
But slavery is wrong. Period. god/no god. Wrong. Get over it.
My wife and I have been married for 33 years. We make important decisions together. We are a team. Always.
And in the thirty years my daughter has been alive have I ever taught her that she was anything other than a good person. And the result is that she has grown into a loving, intelligent and worthwhile adult.
As to respecting you. I don't think so. You have a right to whatever nonsense you want to believe, but I have no obligation to respect someone who would treat children to this kind of poison. Or peddle it to others.
If you are intent on handing this kind of power to your husband, and he is foolish enough to accept it, I hope he at least treats you well. Clearly you are not capable of doing this much for yourself or your children.
I agree with Jean that according to the Bible, slavery is not necessarily wrong. Socially, and on the level of basic human decency, slavery IS wrong. Living your life and having values based on promoting basic human rights says that we should not enslave others of our species, or otherwise harm or infringe on others of our species.
There are many things that the Bible says concerning the roles of women, homosexuality, parenting, etc. that were socially acceptable during the time-frame the book was written. However, in this time and this culture, many of these things are not good, acceptable or right.
Thus, it's my belief that even if you are a religious person, you should not use a religious text as the end-all for how you should live your life, and how you should treat other creatures on this earth. Many, if not most, religious text contain good tidbits of wisdom, as well as a snapshot in time of our past ideas, transgressions and superstitions. Even if you do choose to subscribe to a certain viewpoint, it's my strong recommendation that you do not accept a point of view just because a book contains a statement about it, or chooses to omit information about it.
Just because something is right/wrong based on the text, does not make it right/wrong on a basic level.
Believe in whatever helps you sleep at night and gives you hope for the future - but make sure those beliefs withstand a healthy dose of logic before you preach them as gospel.
May the FSM be with you,
D.
Oh, look, Lord. Here's somebody with practically no understanding of history. Why would a black woman try to justify slavery? Is this like the wife of an alcoholic saying "he just needs it to relax" or something?
Of course, Lord, she also apparently hasn't read Your book that closely, has she?
"With the issue of Slavery Christians are often put in a corner because they are trying to defend God and at the same time the bible nowhere directly attacks slavery. The bible does not condemn slavery."
Actually, Jean, the Bible not only "does not condemn slavery," it actively supports it. It's filled with wholesome examples of how slaves should behave.
"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered." (1 Timothy 6:1)
(In case you're curious, I'm going with NIV. I prefer KJV, just for the language, but NIV tends to be more accessible.)
Of course, while you tried to justify your argument with statements (in your "Responses" section) with "What you have to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world," it shows that you still don't have a full understanding of the Bible. (Oh, by the way, you and your friends need to stop feeding from the same trough. I smell plagiarism when "michael" up above repeats your arguments pretty much word-for-word.)
Well, of course racial slavery was less common. Different races are found in different parts of the world, and they didn't have much long-distance travel back then. Very little contact between different races.
Regardless of that, slavery was very similar in ancient times and more recently. And if you'd truly read your Old Testament, you'd know that. Slaveowners, for example, were allowed to beat their slaves, as long as they survived the ordeal.
"When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property." (Exodus 21:20-21)
And, of course, the slave is just supposed to take the abuse.
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God." (1 Peter 2:18-21)
Of course, there were other interesting rules for slaves back then.
"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life."
See, you lose your investment in six years, unless you hold his wife and child hostage. Then you can make him yours for life. That's family values for you!
Of course, selling your daughters as sex slaves is even a better example of family values, isn't it?
"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money."
And see? You're even allowed to cast your sex-slave aside, and it doesn't cost you a thing (past your initial investment, anyway)! What a great way to keep peace with your new wife!
Let us pray - Lord, please allow this woman to read and truly understand your Book. And if she does so, and still feels that it has any relevance in the modern world, please make her stop misquoting it.
Amen.
Hooray for the post above mine - you've read more Bible than I have and came up with blisteringly good passages the apparently-adult author of this blog has apparently never read.
Continuing on with my condemnation of the author of this blog:
Jean, have you even READ what the bible says about slaves? Specifically, what the bible says about how one can take slaves, from which nations (any of them except Israel), how slaves are to be treated?
For example, you ignorant bitch, if a man beats his slave and the slave dies within 3 days, the slave-owner gets punished. But if it takes more than 3 days for the slave to die of his injuries, well that's just hunky-fucking-dory.
Get your head out of your arse, retrieve your brain from the bronze-age scroll you left it in and come join the rest of us in the new millennium.
Jean, darling? You need to pray for understanding and actually hear what the Holy Spirit is conveying. Slavery in biblical times is the equivalent of an employer/employee relationship of today. It was indentured slavery back then, which is different from the forced slavery that African Americans endured way back when, and those that are being abducted and sold into the sex slave trade today.
The term "slavery" was lost in the translation and the new meaning was used to benefit slave owners by using mind control methods on African American slaves.
I'm praying for you.
If anyone were searching for a reason to reject Christianity, Jean, you are it. Like those who follow so many other world views based upon myth and superstition, you cling to these unproven, contradictory, outright ridiculous teachings so tightly that YOU, a black woman, would actually condone one of the most repulsive institutions humans have ever inflicted upon other humans.
It just goes to show how far a person will stoop in order to maintain some level of "safety", "security" and pseudo-happiness. In short, if your mythological sky daddy doesn't exist, you're a fool. If he does, than he's a petty old, genocidal megalomaniac, not worthy of anyone's devotion.
Choco wrote..."That marriage will last a week. Two people making the final decision. See you in my ER."
My wife and I have been doing that for 25 years and have NEVER ended up in an "ER", much less yours. My parents and in-laws followed the same model without the need for divorce. Do you really think that two people who love each other deeply, cannot come to mutual decisions WITHOUT one of the party playing some creepy authority figure? If so, you Christians are more deranged than I thought. And that's from someone who grew up a Southern Baptist, but thankfully had the good sense to chuck the whole lot of it.
you're a dumb racist cunt. too bad there's not a hell for you to burn in
"I understand that there is so much evil in slavery, when masters abuse their slaves. That is wrong. The bible condemns treating others in an evil way. So this is not the issue. But slavery in itself is not wrong. Just as husbands can abuse wives, does it mean marriage is evil?"
Oh the logic.
Do you really think that husbands own their wives? How can you compare the two at all? Because they appear side by side in a book you think is the unquestionable source of truth for all?
Does religion make all people this dumb? Can you really not think for yourself?
Stop praying, start thinking.
Okay, this poor woman Jean only became indoctrinated into this cult at the age of 23 in 2006. Give her a break, there's still hope for her. Let's hope someone can let her see the error of her ways, and the lunacy of her religion/cult.
I am praying to the multitude of sky fairies and the one true flying spaghetti monster that she will find the truth, and renounce these evil thoughts.
This is just plain misinformed. The Bible tells you to do unto others as you would have do unto you. Do you want to be a slave? Then don't keep slaves. QED.
If slavery is alright, is genocide also alright?
Only if God commands it...which, you know, he sometimes does.
How anyone can argue for the morality of slavery, I cannot fathom.
As to your arguments, Jean, let us begin to dissect them.
1. But slavery in itself is not wrong. Just as husbands can abuse wives, does it mean marriage is evil? Or parents can abuse their children, does it mean parenting is wrong?
This is an "apples to oranges" comparison. You seem to be missing the part that a wife is not owned by her husband, and children are not owned by their parents. A slave is owned. A slave can be sold with no regard to personal well-being. A slave can be sold without regard to their own family. If the owner wishes, he can sell a man, his wife, and their children to completely seperate individuals, splitting up that family.
This, I shouldn't have to point out, is not exactly in keeping with the "good family values" that Christians are so fond of claiming adherence to.
2. If slavery is wrong, then wives should not submit to their husbands, children should not obey parents, women should became equal to men and preach in churches ( which is forbidden in the bible by the way), and mostly no one should call Jesus their master or submit to the authority of God
You confuse submission with slavery. I submit to my boss because I need my job. However, if I choose, I can leave that job, and suffer no legal consequences. The police will not hunt me down and force me to return to work.
As for a woman submitting to her husband, and children to their parents, I have a question for you. It is clear that you believe that for a wife to disobey her husband, or children to disobey their parents, is wrong, and therefore, it can be presumed, a sin. My question is as follows; If a husband tells his wife to do something that is, itself, a sin, what should she do? To commit the act is a sin, is it not? And yet, to disobey by not committing the act is also a sin. The same situation can be applied to a parent/child relationship.
3. Slavery makes so much sense
Slavery makes sense? Prove it. In what way does slavery make sense? I promise that for any situation you come up with in which slavery is better than the alternative, I can come up with a vastly superior solution to the situation.
4. but in relation to each other women and men are not equal. God gave us different roles.
Again, I must answer with a question. Let us look at two people, we shall call them John and Jack. John works in accounts receivable for his company. Jack, on the other hand, works for account payable at the same company. The two have different roles. Are they, therefore, unequal? I assume that you believe that a woman's role in marriage is to be a submissive wife and mother, and that the man should be the breadwinner. I will not challenge that assumption, because doing so will get me nothing. However, let us examine this marriage. We have John, and Mary, a happily married couple. John works, and is fortunate to bring home enough money that Mary does not have to do so. Mary stays at home and cares for their two children. She cooks and cleans, and handles other such domestic niceties. You say they are not equal, and I say that they are. Both roles are of equal importance. They are different, but that does not make them unequal. One could say that without John, Mary would have nowhere to live. To that, I say that without Mary, John's home would rapidly become unlivable.
5. In closing, yes, the bible does condone slavery. And to you, this means it is acceptable. I apologize, for I once again, must address this issue with a question.
Have you ever eaten lobster? Crab, perhaps? Any kind of shellfish?
If so, I have only one thing to say;
Leviticus 11:10-12
10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
In case you missed that, eating shellfish is a sin. An abomination in the eyes of God.
If you're going to follow the bible to the letter, don't skimp.
Also, biblically, you aren't even allowed to try to refute me. I'm male, and as Timothy 2:12 says,"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
So, you can either agree with me, or you can make no response. Though I suppose that's your husband's choice, isn't it?
(Note: I apologize if I have incorrectly assumed that you are married.)
I just had to say more a bit more... the whole argument saying that abuse is wrong but slavery itself is not is like saying that shooting someone in the head is not itself wrong just because murder sometimes results from it. Abuse of slaves is an inseparable part of slavery.
Most people don't take into account the Biblical definition of slavery.
Slavery way back then happened when two nations went to war and one of them won. The victorious country (let's call it Nation A) took slaves from the other nation (Nation B) as spoils of war (Daniel, in the Bible, is taken to Babylon in this context). At some point, another nation, whether Nation B or a different country, would defeat Nation A. Old slaves would be freed, new ones would be taken. The Bible was not talking about black slavery in the U.S., nor was it talking about sex trafficking in Asia.
Another interesting point: while "condoning" slavery, the Bible also requires slaveowners to free their slaves after seven years. Note that this is also the required treatment for a debtor--forgive the debt after seven years.
The Bible, while a spiritual and moral guide, is also historical. Its main lesson, which remains true no matter what your interpretation, is to trust God and respect your fellow man. I think we all agree with that, and I think we all could be a mite more respectful in trying to convince others of what we believe to be true.
a friend showed this to me and i feel as another christian i need to put in about what is being said....
ok, so in the new testament there was more compassion for slaves at that time but did you forget to mention that ISREAL was enslaved to Egypt and God got them out by killing the first born male in every household in Egypt and the only homes unharmed were the ones with blood over the doors of their homes.
God attacked the country of Egypt with disease and disaster until Moses was told to take his people and go.
You cant just throw out the old testament, if you're trying to keep God's word you need to remember that His word is the old testament too...
And as far as women submitting to their husbands yes, in a way you do. You back up what your husband does... however, if he is wrong, i wouldnt suggest that, but that doesnt mean you cause division in your home. Husbands in a way are to submit to their wives aswell. you form a union amongst you, your husband, and God.
nowhere in the bible does it say women have to stay home with children. all human life is given free will, whether you want to serve God or not. he gave us that choice.
I in a way could see parts of your point, but please remember that not all slaves were actually treated bad. it depended on the master. nowadays we call that jobs, lol.
you do what your boss tells you. some employers treat you worse than others, but the biggest point i believe you have missed here is that the whole point of christianity is to break free from bondage and slavery mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. You are a servant to God yes, but not a slave. thats where that free will thing comes in. Our God is a loving, redeeming, and compassionate God, and he wants us to break out of anything that holds us down from feeling free.
with that being said, i hope you understand my points.
God bless.
Hi, I would just like to say that I think bringing slavery back under certain conditions would be great.
I think that slavery "for a time" could be a just penalty for various crimes... under certain conditions and supervision.
I do not think that this would be inhumane treatment. I think corporal punishment for that matter could still serve a purpose in certain aspects.
I think that it would be far more humane than locking a person up for years when a good public flogging could deter that person from breaking the law again in the future. and... cost the tax payer a lot less money!
Wow. Just wow. I used to consider myself a Christian, but your words really hit home for me. Now I am an atheist. Thank you for helping me see the foolishness of worshiping such a cruel and heartless god.
Galatians 5:14, miss.
I think that slavery "for a time" could be a just penalty for various crimes... under certain conditions and supervision.
You mean like if you got into a car accident and the guy who hit you didn't have insurance, a judge could order him to become your butler?
The irony is strong with this one
This is just typical. A saved Christian explains what the Bible actually says, as opposed to what fluffy-bunny "Christians" want it to say, and all of the liberals come show up and commit anti-Christian hate speech against her.
to be fair, i think you should take your mental health skills and practice them on youself. You have extremely horrible views that deserve nothing less than to put you into slavery, see how you like it
Using a bronze age fairy tale to justify the ownership of one human being by another. Nice.
Jean: speaking as a man, a father, and a human being, I beg you to love your children as much as you can. Take care.
You should read this article:
http://www.livingvinechurch.org/ds/q1109/q1109.html
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself."
It's incredible to see the level of hate and self-righteousness that this post has generated.
And to see the degree to which her critics misrepresent the author's views.
And to see how determined so many people are to restrict the freedoms of those who may choose privately to take slavery as a model for their own consensual relationships with their partners, or their God.
Go in peace, Jean. There have always been people who prefer to hate and insult. The ideologies which they use to justify it come and go, but basic human viciousness remains. It's a kind of testimony to your decency that you've brought so much of it out of the woodwork.
I know that this is an older post but....you are one sick puppy. Slavery is evil and wrong....And yes Men and Women are equal...and expecting women to submit and be a slave to the kitchen and the Bible
I appaud the people above that answered you rationally but you don't deserve any respect. After reading a few things from your blog all I have to say is Thank God I'm an Athiest and Thank God most Christians aren't like you.
Slavery is nowhere condemned, it is only the terms of slavery that are condemned.
Those here who think otherwise, quit your jobs, take nothing from the government and prove that you are not a slave. Don't pay your debts, don't pay your mortgage, prove that you are not a slave in this present system. A slave is merely someone who is entirely subject to the conditions provided to them. In the case today the conditions provided may allow you freedom of movement, and possibly even choice of master, but unless you entirely resign from the system a master you must have. The point is, slavery is still rampant in so-called free societies today, all that has changed are the conditions.
If you think you truly are free, you must remember:
"the borrower is servant to the lender"
Excellent point look up. It's amazing how atheists come to a Christian website, totally void of ANY biblical knowledge whatsoever, and JUDGE a Christian set of standards and beliefs based on the God we serve by nothing more than the hatred in their own hearts.
This is the very reason why I do not allow these type of comments on my blog, I desire to edify the true body of Christ, not to engage in hateful speech with children of Satan.
Sister Jean, I pray you will consider this in your heart. The backlash you take brings you to confusion, doubt, and a sense of being beat down. Perhaps it's best if you 'weed out' the tares from your blog. God has gifted you with discernment, you know who the Lord sends here, and for what purpose!
Dear Jean, thank you for reminding me that atheists do not even come close to exaggerating the grievous intellectual and moral harm religion can do to the unwary. Enjoy your mind virus.
It's late so I can merely tap on this subject a little bit. I will go on a limb here and say that slavery is wrong and I disagree with you completely. Maybe tomorrow sometime I will take time to read more of the comments here but for now I will just claim what I know to be truth. Someone just pointed to this post out to me so I will quickly comment.
From my post about slavery:
Back in the days of Leviticus slavery was sanctioned due to economic reasons. Back then, there were no such thing as bankruptcy laws so people would sell themselves into slavery to rectify debts. A craftsman could use his skills to literally "pay off" a debt. Or a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave. (Exodus 22:3)
The Bible recognizes the reality of slavery, but it never promotes the practice of slavery. It was the biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States.
One has to only go far as to think why the Jews left Egypt in the first place to see God's view of slavery. It took some years in America to wake up to the realization of biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality. (Genesis 1:27, Acts 17:26-28, Galatians 3:28)
A bond is a shackle: a restraint that confines or restricts freedom. That is the farthest thing from the description of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are not to be slaves. The Bible proclaims that there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. We are not chained to the body of Christ, we are the body of Christ.
Blessings,
Dan
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